PN1

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Chesher, Mr Forster, the Deputy President has joined the call.

PN2

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good afternoon, everybody - can you hear me clearly?

PN3

MR M CHESHER: Yes, I can.

PN4

MR S FORSTER: I can, your Honour.

PN5

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I should indicate that this afternoon's hearing is being recorded so I might just get you to state your names for the purposes of the recording, thank you. So perhaps you first, Mr Chesher.

PN6

MR CHESHER: Yes, Chesher, initial M, for the Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance.

PN7

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, and Mr Forster.

PN8

MR FORSTER: Forster, initial S, on behalf of News Ltd, Bauer Media and Pacific Magazines Ltd. Thank you, your Honour.

PN9

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, gentlemen, again for making yourselves available this afternoon. This is really to follow up on the conference that we had in April of this year in respect of the journalists and published media award. I think as I referred to in the conference in respect of another award, the broadcasting award, last week, the president just asked that I convene another conference or hearing of the parties just to see whether there had been any change in the situation that was outlined when we were last together in April.

PN10

So that's very much the purpose of this afternoon and my notes from that conference in April indicate that the parties were still of a different mind in respect of the threshold issue and in terms of whether the award should provide for time off in lieu or alternatively payment for overtime as the default position. That was really sort of the key issue or one of the key issues that still remained unresolved though at the last - on the last occasion we were together Mr Forster on behalf of those that you represent he proposed a number of amendments to the award clause, if I can put it that way.

PN11

So I'm not quite sure who may wish to go first in terms of whether there's been any change but I'll throw it to you anyway.

PN12

MR CHESHER: Look, I'm happy for Mr Forster to reflect our conversations, your Honour, and I'll add as appropriate.

PN13

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, thanks.

PN14

MR FORSTER: Thank you, your Honour, and thanks, Mr Chesher. Your Honour, on the threshold issue there is - there has been discussion, formal discussions between the parties.

PN15

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN16

MR FORSTER: But at this point in time the parties have not reached agreement to change their respective positions on that point so that threshold issue remains. With that threshold issue there you'll appreciate, your Honour, that it's difficult for us to - as parties, I suppose - get very much further in progressing towards an agreement. All I can add in addition to that - and Mr Chesher knows this and we've talked regularly about this or other matters as well - is that the sort of suggestions we made to, for want of a better description - pamper some other aspects of the modal TOIL clause but whilst retaining the default position remains a course that our clients are open to explore in both as a possible - again for want of a better description - negotiated outcome or something that we could suggest to the Full Bench if we ultimately have to have this as a fully arbitrated decision as an alternative to our primary position, which is that the clause should remain unchanged.

PN17

So that's really the position of my clients, your Honour.

PN18

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I've got a question that comes out of that but I might let Mr Chesher say anything he may wish to and then I'll sort of put the question that I have so over to you, Mr Chesher.

PN19

MR CHESHER: Yes, what Mr Forster says is true, your Honour. We've had a number of discussions and I would put on the record that we've thought to apply our self - I'm talking about me here somewhat creatively to this question - by looking at the without-prejudice offer that was put to us at the end of last year and working with that. But I've had a range of internal discussions over the last few days and the decision arising is that we are not prepared to concede the status quo, I guess, in the journalist published media award. Having said that in our most recent conversation Mr Forster and I, I think, agreed at least in principle that we'd convene a meeting in the course of the next couple of weeks at a high level and by that I mean my chief executive, myself and the director of our media unit to meet with Mr Forster and key representatives, not only of his firm but of his clients as well, just to try and work this issue over so that at least we more clearly understand where our - the limits of our respective positions are.

PN20

So it's unusual but I think that this - it's unusual that we haven't had that kind of discussion to date. We've approached it more as a dual but convening this conference gives us that kind of impetus where we're not dedicated to that arbitral process. But we have borne witness to a process of quite considerable change with respect to this award flexibility around where, I think I'm safe in saying that other than awards where all parties concede that the model TOIL provision should not be inserted in their respective awards, that the model TOIL provision or a close variant thereof has got into all other awards - - -

PN21

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN22

MR CHESHER: - - - including those that have this reverse position of TOIL before overtime. That's all I have to say on that.

PN23

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, thank you. You've kind of gone where I was - the question I was going to ask was where it was directed to get a sense of in the discussions to date, whether there was some narrowing of the issues and whilst the inference I draw from what you've said, Mr Chesher, is that there may not be at this stage a narrowing of the issues there's at least going to be an attempt at some stage in the next couple of weeks to perhaps have a further conversation which might sort of either go at one end of the spectrum or alternatively might sort of throw up some other possibilities.

PN24

Is that a fair inference to draw from what you've said?

PN25

MR CHESHER: I think it is but as you would know, your Honour, getting the mind focussed for a meeting like that has a special sense of productivity.

PN26

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. One question - in terms of where, I suppose, the issue itself might go, it strikes me as probably sensible to await whether that meeting results in any sort of progress before sort of determining how the matter might be progressed from the Commission's perspective. I suppose I'd ask whether people think that's comfortable - whether you're comfortable with that. Secondly, perhaps I'd pose a question as to whether you thought there was any value in terms of whether it's in the immediate sense - depending on how your meeting goes - whether the Commission in terms of perhaps facilitating a conference trying to narrow the gap around that issue as well.

PN27

MR CHESHER: I think that's - the sequence with which you've just put that makes sense, your Honour. If we have a meeting and whether it's loggerheads or there's a new path to an agreement, I think it would be wise to have a facilitated conference before the Commission - a fairly frank and robust one, if I can seek that, because it would be a lot more palatable than going through all stages of arbitration.

PN28

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure - Mr Forster, do you have a view on that?

PN29

MR FORSTER: I think that's a good suggestion. I think whether it's appropriate or not to proceed to a facilitated conference will be clearer to the parties, too, after the discussions that we're preparing to have independent of the Commission. I think - - -

PN30

MR CHESHER: I agree with that, your Honour - sorry to interrupt.

PN31

MR FORSTER: That's okay - and I was about to say to Mr Chesher that I think that was sort of the inference that I drew from his comments as well so certainly I think your Honour's suggestion about what we do now in terms of just shooting and seeing what happens with those discussions and the order of how things might happen with any future facilitated session is a good suggestion. We would be happy to adhere to that.

PN32

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, well, look, we'll leave it on that basis and can I just ask and perhaps after you have the meeting at some stage in the next couple of weeks and whether you do it jointly or separately I don't really mind, I'd just - if you can advise whether you thought there was some value in terms of that facilitated discussion conference, we can - I can then look at organise that as expeditiously as I possibly can. If the view of both of you is that, well, our discussions have gone nowhere and we're really in the territory now of perhaps going down the - having the issue determined, we can then have a very brief phone hook up to, in essence, consider how you wish to proceed on that basis, down that path, whether it would be something that you would wish to rely on your previous written submissions, noting that at the last conference we had Mr Chesher - you foreshadowed that MEAA may wish to lodge some supplementary submissions but just to get a sense of whether you wanted to actually be heard in respect of those submissions and so on and so forth, just some of the finer points in terms of how it might occur so that I could relay that to the President and the Full Bench could then think about a timetable, for want of a better description.

PN33

MR CHESHER: That sounds fine to me, your Honour.

PN34

MR FORSTER: And to my clients, your Honour.

PN35

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, okay. Well, in those circumstances for this afternoon we'll leave it there and I'll look forward to hearing from you both either separately or jointly once the meeting occurs at some stage in the coming weeks and we'll see where we go from there.

PN36

MR CHESHER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN37

MR FORSTER: Thanks, your Honour.

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks for your time. Enjoy the rest of your day and have a nice weekend.

PN39

MR CHESHER: And to you.

PN40

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much - cheers, 'bye.

PN41

MR CHESHER: Thanks, Matthew.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.15 PM]