PN2231

THE COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon all.

PN2232

MS LIEBHABER: Good afternoon.

PN2233

MR BULL: Good afternoon.

PN2234

THE COMMISSIONER: I'll take appearances, please.

PN2235

MS R LIEBHABER: Liebhaber, initial R for the HSU.

PN2236

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You can remain seated, Ms Liebhaber. Thank you. In Sydney?

PN2237

MS J STEELE: Ms Steele and Ms Forster for NATSIHWA.

PN2238

THE COMMISSIONER: Apologies, it's difficult to hear. If you don't mind just speaking up whoever that was?

PN2239

MS STEELE: Ms Steele and Ms Forster for NATSIHWA.

PN2240

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Steele.

PN2241

MR S BULL: If the Commission pleases it's Bull, initial S for United Voice.

PN2242

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Bull.

PN2243

MS J McDONALD: McDonald, initial J for AFEI.

PN2244

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2245

MS E SLAYTOR: Slaytor, initial E, for ABI and New South Wales Business Chamber.

PN2246

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Slaytor. Before we proceed I'd just like to ask all parties in Sydney if they could move the microphone as close as possible to where they're seated. Thank you so much. Just to make it easier to hear. Would you mind moving into the middle? I can't see you from there. Just make it easier. Thank you. Thanks so much.

PN2247

Confirming that this is a continuation of the previous conference in relation to the substantive matters in relation to this award and the parties have provided, as I understand it, a joint position summary document in relation to where they see things in terms of each of the items. I understand that the summary of proposed substantive variations document that was circulated by the Commission to the parties may have been forwarded only 24 hours ago or so. Is that correct?

PN2248

MS STEELE: Yes. That's correct.

PN2249

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Right. Could you just confirm with me that the document that was provided about an hour ago, does refer at all to the document prepared by the Commission or ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2250

MS STEELE: Yes, it does. You will see that the first column is the substantive issues table, so item 1 of the document that was provided refers to item S3, but it sets out the position. It's just the difficulty with the summary of proposed substantive variations ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2251

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2252

MS STEELE: ‑ ‑ ‑was that there was some repetitive items and there were some items that weren't clear and so the parties attempted to set out all of the different substantive changes by reference to the substantive issue number in the summary of proposed substantive variations.

PN2253

THE COMMISSIONER: So what is the position in relation to those matters that are not identified in the document prepared by the parties? Are the parties able to take me to those items and say what their position is?

PN2254

MS STEELE: They're co-extensive and with respect to any changes that may be in the summary of proposed substantive variations they've either been agreed or withdrawn, but it's the parties' understanding that the document supplied at about 1 pm today sets out all of the substantive proposed changes under proposed changes and cross-references it to the substantive issues table as I tried to previously explain.

PN2255

THE COMMISSIONER: So there would be nothing in the summary table prepared by the Commission that's not dealt with in your document?

PN2256

MS STEELE: That's correct.

PN2257

THE COMMISSIONER: That's perhaps the better question.

PN2258

MS STEELE: That's correct.

PN2259

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. If that's the case then that certainly clarifies things for me and I'm more than happy to proceed on the basis of that document, the one that you've submitted today. Is there anything anyone wishes to raise moving forward, and how you'd like to conduct today's conference? From my perspective I would need to ensure that at the conclusion of today's conference there was a proper reflection on transcript of where the parties stood in relation to each matter and which items are still being pressed by which parties. So that's where I need to be able to conclude today, but in terms of how we proceed I'm really in the parties' hands. I can either go through each item, item by item, of the parties' position summary document and take views or I'm happy to go off the record for the moment if the parties wish to conduct further discussions between themselves.

PN2260

MS STEELE: It's my understanding that this document reflects the final position of all of the parties.

PN2261

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN2262

MS STEELE: Except with respect to some of the changes that have been put forward by the HSU, namely items 17 to 21, and in respect of those items it's my understanding that ABI and AFEI have not yet confirmed their position. I don't know whether they're in a position to do that today. If they were able to do that today that would be something that would be useful to record on to the transcript. But that's the only area where there hasn't been a final position reached.

PN2263

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN2264

MR BULL: Just to re-enforce what my friend said, we've had a number of constructive conferences at the office of the law firm.

PN2265

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2266

MR BULL: So I think in relation to items 1 to 15 that's it.

PN2267

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2268

MR BULL: And there's some unresolved matters that we can usefully discuss in relation to 16 onwards.

PN2269

THE COMMISSIONER: So 1 to 15 are as they are recorded in the parties' position summary document dated 19 July prepared by, Ms Forster, your firm; is that correct?

PN2270

MS FORSTER: Yes, Commissioner.

PN2271

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. In that case then what are the respective positions in relation to items 16 through to 21?

PN2272

MS McDONALD: Commissioner, AFEI's position in relation to item 16 of the party document is that we oppose that submission.

PN2273

THE COMMISSIONER: So you oppose 16. That's your final position?

PN2274

MS McDONALD: That's correct.

PN2275

THE COMMISSIONER: That's AFEI.

PN2276

MS McDONALD: Yes.

PN2277

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2278

MS SLAYTOR: Commissioner, the position for New South Wales Business Chamber and ABI in relation to items, I can do all of them, items 16 through to 21.

PN2279

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2280

MS SLAYTOR: Is that we are still taking instruction.

PN2281

THE COMMISSIONER: So still taking instructions. Right.

PN2282

MS SLAYTOR: Thank you.

PN2283

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2284

MS McDONALD: Commissioner, AFEI can provide their positions on most of the remaining HSU proposals if the Commission pleases.

PN2285

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2286

MS McDONALD: Yes. In relation to item 17 of the party document AFEI also opposes that proposal. Just to clarify, AFEI does agree that the casual loading is paid in addition to the weekend penalties but does not support the proposal to delete clause 24.2(b) which deals with casual loading and public holidays, or rather how casuals are paid when they are working public holidays.

PN2287

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2288

MS McDONALD: In relation to item 18 we do not oppose the change to 16.6(a) which is the higher duties clause, however we would like some further information from the HSU in regards to 16.6(b) their proposal to include a clause regarding a sole practitioner remote. So that was something put forward yesterday afternoon, and if they have any more information in regards to why that is the change that they are proposing.

PN2289

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN2290

MS McDONALD: In regard to item 19 we oppose the HSU's proposals in relation to the on-call and recall allowance particularly deleting clause 19.6(c) and amending clause 19.6(b).

PN2291

THE COMMISSIONER: So you oppose item 19?

PN2292

MS McDONALD: We oppose item 19.

PN2293

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN2294

MS McDONALD: Yes. Yes. We also oppose item 20 and 21.

PN2295

THE COMMISSIONER: So aside from seeking further information in relation to 16.6(b) of item 18 and not opposing 16.6(a) of item 18 AFEI opposes 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21?

PN2296

MS McDONALD: That's correct.

PN2297

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. ABI opposed 16 through to 21. No, AFEI ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2298

MS SLAYTOR: No.

PN2299

THE COMMISSIONER: ‑ ‑ ‑wants to record they're still seeking instructions in relation to 16 to 21.

PN2300

MS SLAYTOR: That's correct.

PN2301

THE COMMISSIONER: Who else do we have?

PN2302

MS LIEBHABER: Commissioner ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2303

MS SLAYTOR: I think that's all of the positions.

PN2304

THE COMMISSIONER: That's it.

PN2305

MS SLAYTOR: NATSIHWA has confirmed its final position that it supports each of the HSU proposals.

PN2306

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So in terms of obtaining further instructions, Ms Slaytor, how long do you need, do you think?

PN2307

MS SLAYTOR: If I could have 14 days?

PN2308

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN2309

MS SLAYTOR: And undertake to get back to everybody within 14 days' time.

PN2310

THE COMMISSIONER: Within 14 days or – all right, thank you.

PN2311

MS SLAYTOR: Thank you.

PN2312

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms of requiring more information in relation to 16.6(b), Ms McDonald, what do you need and how do you intend to pursue that question?

PN2313

MS MCDONALD: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. It's a question to the HSU.

PN2314

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2315

MS McDONALD: The reason why in particular it is proposed that the sole practitioner receive not less than the minimum rate of pay being similar to the effect of the higher duties clause, but where they are working less than a day, which is what is the time the period in 16.6(a), so the particular circumstances that's prompted them to make that submission in relation to that particular type of work.

PN2316

MS LIEBHABER: Commissioner, I could clarify a little bit.

PN2317

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2318

MS LIEBHABER: So initially the HSU proposed an allowance for a sole practitioner, but when we had a look at the award in closer detail it seemed like it was more appropriate to put that under the higher duties clause. As for grade 3 classification includes a sole practitioner, I think, under the NATSIHWA proposal it's under a grade 5, if I'm correct. So we thought expressing it in that way would be simpler than an allowance, and from our understanding we thought setting the clause up in that way provides some fairness in that if the work is done for two hours or less then the rate is only provided for the time worked but otherwise it would be provided for the full day or full shift. We thought that would provide some balance. So that was sort of the thinking behind why we structured it like that. I'm not sure if that answered the question?

PN2319

MS MCDONALD: That does assist. Thank you. I'll seek some instructions now we have that further information.

PN2320

MS LIEBHABER: Okay, thank you.

PN2321

THE COMMISSIONER: In that case really all that's left is for some instructions to be sought by ABI and AFEI regarding items 16 through to 21 of the parties' position paper, and aside from that the summary of proposed substantive variations can be amended to reflect the parties' positions and in those respects where there's still some opposition I take it there appears to be, to me at least, no point in further conferences. I mean, it is what it is I think.

PN2322

MS SLAYTOR: Yes. Yes. That's correct. We've had a number of conferences. They've been very productive but in effect what is in that document is the parties' final position.

PN2323

THE COMMISSIONER: Position. Then at this stage then the matter will be referred for directions and whatever else ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2324

MS SLAYTOR: Yes.

PN2325

THE COMMISSIONER: ‑ ‑ ‑takes place in the normal course of these AMOD proceedings.

PN2326

MS SLAYTOR: Yes. There is perhaps one further matter in which the parties might be invited to make some written submissions and that is with respect to the most recently uploaded exposure draft.

PN2327

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN2328

MS SLAYTOR: Which invites comment on a couple of new matters, but it's our position that that would be best addressed by perhaps a direction that we address anything that we wish to address with respect to the exposure draft in writing within a short period, within 14 days.

PN2329

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. That can then – do you think it would be helpful to await the further position of ABI and AFEI regarding their position and instructions before there's any comment in ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2330

MS SLAYTOR: No.

PN2331

THE COMMISSIONER: Or are they so unrelated that you think it doesn't matter anyway?

PN2332

MS SLAYTOR: Yes, from our perspective it's unrelated and there's no benefit in doing that.

PN2333

THE COMMISSIONER: In that case then if the parties could provide their comments as to the exposure draft as well, any written submissions within 14 days, and that, I'd suggest, concludes this part of the process.

PN2334

MS SLAYTOR: Yes.

PN2335

MR BULL: Thank you for your assistance, Commissioner.

PN2336

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN2337

MS SLAYTOR: Yes. Thank you.

PN2338

MR BULL: I apologise for any perception of abruptness. It wasn't intended.

PN2339

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bull, I'm tough enough to cope with ay abruptness I assure you; perception or otherwise.

PN2340

MS STEELE: May I trouble you, Commissioner, to ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2341

THE COMMISSIONER: But very kind of you to apologise. Yes?

PN2342

MS STEELE: Sorry to interrupt you, Commissioner. May I trouble you to inquire as to the likely timetabling for further directions, because we anticipate at that point that there may be some directions made with respect to the hearing of these matters?

PN2343

THE COMMISSIONER: Unfortunately that's something that I really would not even hazard a guess about it because it's not within my knowledge at this point. I know that there's certainly eagerness on the part of most people in the Commission in relation to these matters to proceed with them expeditiously. I can assure you of that.

PN2344

MS STEELE: Yes. Thank you.

PN2345

THE COMMISSIONER: But beyond that I can't give you any further information.

PN2346

MS STEELE: Yes. Thank you very much.

PN2347

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there anything else anyone wishes to raise for the record before we adjourn?

PN2348

MS STEELE: No, Commissioner.

PN2349

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you all, and this matter is now adjourned.

ADJOURNED TO A DATE TO BE FIXED [3.33 PM]