PN1

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Good morning everybody. Can you hear us clearly in Melbourne first off?

PN2

MR TINDLEY: Yes, your Honour.

PN3

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you. Can I take appearances please, starting here in Sydney, thank you.

PN4

MR D SCAIFE: Thank you, your Honour. Scaife, initial D, appearing with O'Keefe, initial P, for the SDA.

PN5

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Mr Scaife, Mr O'Keefe.

PN6

MS J KNIGHT: Knight, initial J, appearing for the Australian Services Union.

PN7

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Ms Knight.

PN8

MS R BHATT: Bhatt, initial R, appearing for the Australian Industry Group and Hair & Beauty Australia.

PN9

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Ms Bhatt.

PN10

MR L IZZO: Izzo, initial L, seeking permission to appear on behalf of Australian Business Industrial and New South Wales Business Chamber.

PN11

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Mr Izzo.

PN12

MS J LIGHT: Light, initial J, seeking permission to appear on behalf of the Pharmacy Guild of Australia and with me is Mr Harris, initial S.

PN13

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Ms Light.

PN14

MS A SOLIVEN: Soliven, initial A, from the Motor Trades Association of New South Wales appearing on behalf of Motor Trades Association of Western Australia and Motor Trades Association of Queensland.

PN15

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Ms Soliven. Now in Melbourne, thank you.

PN16

MR N TINDLEY: Tindley, initial N, seeking permission to appear on behalf of the Australian Retailers Association and Master Grocers Australia.

PN17

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Welcome, Mr Tindley. Are there any objections to the applications to be represented in the proceedings?

PN18

MR SCAIFE: I should clarify, your Honour, that I am also seeking permission to appear. I had thought that permission had been dealt with during earlier matters but no objection from our part.

PN19

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Ms Knight?

PN20

MS KNIGHT: No objection.

PN21

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Right. I'm satisfied that the matters involve a degree of complexity and representation will enable the matters to be dealt with more efficiently, so I'm willing to grant permission to those parties that are seeking permission to be represented in these proceedings. So we'll proceed on that basis. Now there are a couple of housekeeping matters that have been foreshadowed. One relates to the proposed schedule of witnesses and secondly, there is the issue of a number of objections to some of the witness statements that have been provided or filed. Are there any other housekeeping matters that people wish to foreshadow?

PN22

MR SCAIFE: No, your Honour, I think when we start the SDA's evidence there are just some matters in our submissions that I will just take the Commission through corrections that need to be made but otherwise no housekeeping matters from our perspective.

PN23

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Shall we deal with the issue of the schedule of witnesses first off?

PN24

MR SCAIFE: Yes, thank you, your Honour. We've provided - the SDA and ASU have provided a proposed schedule of witnesses and we've had an opportunity to confer with the employer parties this morning. Given the number of witnesses and there are some limitations with their availability because they work shifts et cetera, the directions in this matter had the employer parties providing us with witnesses - notice of witnesses required for cross-examination on Friday. They very kindly provided us with notice on Thursday. We have been working furiously over the weekend to make arrangements and that's how this schedule has been produced.

PN25

I understand from conferral with the employer parties that they anticipate that the witnesses will be required for about 45 minutes to an hour in some cases, so that's why the schedule is broken down into sort of hour by hour blocks. Unfortunately, with some of the witnesses as I foreshadowed Ms Giltrap, Ms Cheng is another for today, they're only available at the times that we've listed there in the proposed schedule, so that may cause difficulties in terms of - if say, Ms Brown and Mr Lenton are dealt with quicker than anticipated. In discussions with Ms Knight what we're proposing to do is to get through Ms Brown and Ms Giltrap this morning, then reassess at the break how we are progressing, and it is possible that Ms Rankin and Mr Carter who are scheduled for Wednesday morning, it is possible that we may be able to reschedule them to some time this afternoon. But otherwise we would need the early commencement tomorrow to deal with Ms Rankin's evidence as I understand it.

PN26

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll just make the point that there are some issues from the Bench's perspective in that tomorrow morning is a problem in the sense that one of the members has a matter listed at 9 am, so I'm not sure that we can accommodate a 9 am start tomorrow. Today - well for the next three days in terms of sitting beyond 4 pm, this particular court room is required by Hatcher VP at 4.30 this afternoon, so there's a time limit there and certainly in respect of tomorrow and Thursday Bissett C and myself on either one of those days or both of those days have matters listed for 4.30. So there's problems in terms of going too late on either of those days.

PN27

MR SCAIFE: I appreciate that, your Honour. We will - I think we're in a position to try to move Ms Rankin and Ms Churchill - Ms Rankin may present a problem but I think Ms Knight will need to address that. But Ms Churchill I am making inquiries with about moving her so that we don't - so that we didn't need to make the request for the early start on Thursday. I also understand from my friends that the employer parties that Ms Hughes-Gage is unlikely to be required for cross-examination so that will free up some time on Wednesday that we will also use to try to move the witnesses around. I think that the only way that we can deal with it today from the union's perspective is to move through the witnesses listed for today, see how we progress. Ms Cheng is available at 4 pm but I understand that the employer parties need her for longer than half an hour, so we may need to do some work there to try and reschedule her.

PN28

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Might need to have a plan B for that one.

PN29

MR SCAIFE: Yes, but unfortunately given the time that we've had available to us and the limited availability of the witnesses, that's about as far as I can take it this morning in terms of scheduling.

PN30

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Well, perhaps after the luncheon adjournment we can just do a stocktake on where you might have gotten to and where we might be getting to for the rest of today and where we might sit for tomorrow as well.

PN31

MR SCAIFE: Yes, your Honour.

PN32

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Right. The other issue was the table of objections that have been filed by Mr Izzo. Mr Izzo is there anything you wish to say around those?

PN33

MR IZZO: The only thing I wish to say, your Honour, which is consistent with the email I sent is that our clients do intend to take - to not take a strict approach in terms of objections generally. We do intend to mainly make submissions, so it is only these three issues. Because there's only three we're really in your hands. Happy to deal with it at the beginning of each witness or happy to deal with it collectively. As far as I understand these are the only objections that are identified at this stage by the employer parties, so they're the only three issues we would need to address.

PN34

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo, in your covering email you foreshadowed that you might be having conversations with the unions in respect of the objections. Have they occurred?

PN35

MR IZZO: They haven't but perhaps they could take place during the luncheon adjournment because I don't think any of the objections relate to the first two witnesses.

PN36

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Well, perhaps if that could be the case and then when we do the stocktake after lunch we might just revisit that issue to see where you've gotten to and take it from there.

PN37

MR IZZO: Certainly.

PN38

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: No other housekeeping matters?

PN39

MR SCAIFE: If I could just raise one matter for the record. In relation to Leanne Hughes, Ms Leanne Hughes-Gage, the employer parties have indicated that we won't require her for cross-examination. That is conditional on just some information being provided to us which we believe will readily be able to just be sent to us in an email but there's effectively one or two questions we have for her which are very kind of basic in nature. So we're going to deal offline with the SDA about that and anticipate that if that information is forthcoming then in that case we won't require her for cross-examination. So I think it's highly likely she's not required but it is subject to just that one caveat, that's all.

PN40

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Again if you can just keep the Bench informed on that, that will be helpful, thank you. Ms Bhatt.

PN41

MS BHATT: Deputy President, if I can just raise a couple of issues. On the topic of objections to the evidence, we support the objections that have been identified by ABI and the New South Wales Business Chamber. Beyond that, having regard to the approach that is generally taken in this award review, Ai Group will not raise objections to the evidence when the witness statements are tendered, but I simply say this that we do intend to make submissions about the weight that can be attributed to some of the evidence that is before you, and I will deal with that when we come to making our closing submissions.

PN42

The only other matter I wanted to raise is in relation to the schedule. I think I ought to foreshadow to the extent that this colours any of the unions' discussions with their witnesses regarding scheduling, there is a possibility that some of these witnesses will not be required for an hour, and indeed might be required for much less. The employer parties have had multiple discussions over the past few days to do our best to coordinate our efforts but there's a degree of complexity that's involved where there are so many employer associations. So I think it should foreshadow that if the witnesses are left scheduled the way they are we may end up with time in-between the witnesses that is not practically used, but I appreciate the efforts that my union colleagues have gone to, to try and amend the schedule.

PN43

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Well, it might result in a bit of stop/start and in terms of the timing of the witnesses availability it strikes me as there may not be much that can be done.

PN44

MR SCAIFE: Unfortunately we think that's possibly the case, your Honour, but we will use our best efforts to use all the time productively.

PN45

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you, Ms Scaife. Anything else before we actually get down to the tin-tacks? Mr Scaife, this timetable suggests that we go straight to the evidentiary case, is that - - -

PN46

MR SCAIFE: Yes, if I could just take, as I foreshadowed, Deputy President, if I could just take the Full Bench to our - if I could just hand up that court book for the use of the members of the Bench. This is just the SDA's materials consolidated into a single volume and copies have been provided to my friends who are here in person in Sydney. I don't have copies available in Melbourne but I can assure the employer parties that it's just a consolidation of the material that has already been filed in this matter.

PN47

If I could just take you to tab 2 of that book which is our outline of submissions that was filed. I'd just like to, at an early stage, make some - note some corrections that need to be made to those submissions. The first is on page 7 of the court book, so this is at paragraph 6 of our submissions where we list the witness statements that we rely on. You'll see that at the bottom, paragraph 6, subparagraph (i) there's a reference to the witness statement of Robert Bassett. That can be struck out. Mr Bassett is not available for cross-examination and we no longer seek to rely upon his statement, and it's not included in the volume that's been handed up to the Bench just now.

PN48

If I could then take you to page 14 of the court book and you'll see at the top of page 14 there's a list of the NAPSAs that are relevant to the awards under consideration in this matter. We have omitted one of the NAPSAs which is the Motor Vehicle (Service Station, Sales Establishments, Rust Prevention and Paint Protection) Industry Award 1980, so I will provide that in an email to the Commission this evening but just to note that that's the NAPSA which is relevant to the vehicle award and it was omitted inadvertently on our part there.

PN49

Now to page 24 of the court book, paragraph 72 of our submissions. In that paragraph we describe the remoteness of the SDA regions as defined by the ABS and we've said there that it's defined as very - they are defined as very remote. That should read as "remote and very remote", because there are some localities within the SDA region such as Broome and Port Hedland that are classified as remote as opposed to very remote.

PN50

Then the last thing that I do need to foreshadow which I have had discussions with the employer parties this morning is that at tab 12 of the court book is Ms Churchill's witness statement. Ms Churchill returned a signed copy of her witness statement to us and somehow in the process of signing the PDF made changes to her statement that weren't marked up when it was sent back to us. We only became aware of that upon doing a final review of the materials in the court book. The changes don't change, they're not substantial, they don't change the meaning of what Ms Churchill says but I've been through that with my colleagues this morning. They're aware of the changes that have been made and obviously if anything arises from that, Ms Churchill isn't scheduled until the next day or two and any prejudice that has been caused to the employer parties will hopefully be able to be remedied in that time. So those our housekeeping issues, your Honour.

PN51

If I could just briefly describe the claims before the Full Bench and then call on our first witness Ms Brown. These are applications by the SDA and the ASU for the inclusion of district allowances. Insofar as the SDA's application is concerned, we have set out at paragraph 3 of our submissions the five awards into which the SDA is seeking the insertion of district allowances. Those are the General Retail Industry Award 2010, the Fast Food Industry Award 2010, the Vehicle Manufacturing Repair Services Retail Award 2010, the Pharmacy Industry Award 2010 and the Hair and Beauty Industry Award 2010.

PN52

The SDA claim is to the effect of inserting a clause into each of those awards which would have the effect of allowing a weekly allowance of 4.28 per cent of the standard rate in the award to be paid to workers in the Kimberley Pilbara and Gascoyne Regions of Western Australia. It's essentially on the same basis as the Broken Hill allowance which exists in all of the five awards except for the vehicle award. Those allowances have historically been justified by reference to the cost of living, the climate and the isolation, the disabilities that are experienced by virtue of those factors in the various regions of Western Australia, and the evidence that we are leading from the lay witnesses goes towards putting a human face on the experiences that the workers in those regions experience on a subjective level, but also particularly in relation to climate and isolation. Those are particularly subjective qualities and we think that it's important that the lay witnesses - the lay witness evidence we say is important from the perspective of expressing the experiences of isolation and of climate, whereas cost of living is obviously a factor which is more easily quantified. With that very brief opening I propose to move into calling our first witness which is Makere Brown.

PN53

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'm told for Mr Tindley and Ms Imbriano in Melbourne to actually call the first witness on the telephone, we actually need to disconnect and then redial the VC connection to Melbourne. So you'll lose us shortly but you'll come back in a moment, so bear with us.

PN54

MR TINDLEY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN55

MS BROWN: Hello?

PN56

THE ASSOCIATE: Hello, is that Ms Brown?

PN57

MS BROWN: Yes, it is.

PN58

THE ASSOCIATE: Hello, Ms Brown, my name's Grace. I'm calling from the Fair Work Commission. I've just dialled you - - -

PN59

MS BROWN: Yes, yes, I've been expecting you.

PN60

THE ASSOCIATE: I've just dialled you directly into the hearing that you're giving evidence in today.

PN61

MS BROWN: Mm-hm.

PN62

THE ASSOCIATE: I'm just going to administer an affirmation to you, could you please state your full name and address?

PN63

MS BROWN: Makere Brown, Manu, I'm known as Manu. (Address supplied).

<MAKERE BROWN, AFFIRMED [10.35 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE [10.35 AM]

PN64

MR SCAIFE: Ms Brown, this is Mr Scaife, the lawyer for the SDA, we've spoken previously. Can you hear me all right?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN65

Ms Brown, I just have just a couple of questions for you. Did you - have you made a witness statement supporting the SDA's claim for a district allowance?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN66

Do you have a copy of that statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN67

Does that statement run to 38 paragraphs?‑‑‑It does, 38, yes.

PN68

It's dated 21 January 2018?‑‑‑Dated 21 January 2018, yes, that's correct.

PN69

Is that signature on final page, Ms Brown?‑‑‑That is my signature.

PN70

Is the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, I've re-read it and yes, it is.

PN71

Thank you. If I could tender the witness statement of Ms Brown which is at tab 6 of the court book, your Honour.

PN72

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Ms Makere Brown, which comprises 38 paragraphs and four pages and is dated 21 January 2018 as exhibit 1.

EXHIBIT #1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MAKERE BROWN DATED 21/01/2018

*** MAKERE BROWN XN MR SCAIFE

PN73

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, your Honour. That's the examination-in-chief. Ms Brown, you're just now going to be asked some questions by some of the other parties in the room?‑‑‑Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [10.38 AM]

PN74

MR IZZO: Hi Ms Brown, how are you? It's Mr Izzo here. I represent the New South Wales Business Chamber and an organisation called ABI. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can. Yes, thank you.

PN75

Great. Ms Brown, I just want to ask you some questions initially just about some of your history. I noticed that you moved to Hedland from New Zealand about five years ago. You put that in your statement. I take it that you were in New Zealand for some time before that. Is that correct?‑‑‑Well, I'm from New Zealand and I lived there until I moved here.

PN76

So whereabouts in New Zealand were you from?‑‑‑I'm from a place called Kennedy Bay in Coromandel on the Coromandel Peninsula.

PN77

Can I ask you lived there, did you, for most of your life before moving to Port Hedland or you were in a few various different places?‑‑‑All of - all of my life prior to coming to Hedland.

PN78

What is it that caused you to move from New Zealand to Hedland?‑‑‑Well, my husband died and my children are all living in Australia, so they offered me to come and live with them to see how I liked it, if I liked it or not, and I'm still here.

PN79

I'm terribly sorry to hear about that circumstance?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN80

So you obviously - you moved over about five years ago, so I take it that you do like it here in Australia do you and you're kind of intending on staying at least for the near term. Is that the case?‑‑‑Yes, I love it here. I love the heat, it's good for my arthritis.

PN81

Do I take it then that at the moment you've got no intention of moving elsewhere. Is that right?‑‑‑Well, I do have intentions of moving back home eventually, whether that's before I die or you know, I don't know.

PN82

When you say home, you mean back to New Zealand?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MR IZZO

PN83

Sure, thank you. I think you mentioned your partner. Your partner's someone you met in Australia, is that right, or in New Zealand?‑‑‑Yes, yes, that's correct. No, I met him here after I'd been here for two years, yes.

PN84

You mention that your partner works in a casual - sorry, withdraw that. You mention that your partner has a massive mortgage, is how you describe it. Are you able to kind of let us know what does that mean? How much is massive? Are you able to indicate what the repayments are monthly or something that can give us a bit of an idea what you mean by that?‑‑‑Yes, he pays $500 a week. I think that's massive.

PN85

Yes, thank you. Do you know how long he's had that property?‑‑‑He's been here for about eight or nine years, maybe 10. I'm not - yes, I think he's been here for more than 10 years.

PN86

Do you have an idea about how much the house is actually worth? How much it cost to buy?‑‑‑I think he paid around about $250,000 for it when it was, you know, like that long ago.

PN87

Yes, and you think that's a number of years ago I take it?‑‑‑That's a number of years ago, yes.

PN88

Is it just the two of you in the house, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN89

Now if I can ask you, before I move on I think you mentioned in your statement that you're about a 20 kilometre drive away from work. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN90

How long's that take usually to get to work?‑‑‑Around about 20 minutes.

PN91

So just bear with me one moment. So on average what, you're going about 60, 65, 70 kilometres an hour in terms of the average speed on the motorways to get there, that's kind of the - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I don't have big flash car, I just have a little Toyota and I don't drive fast so yes, it takes me about 20 minutes. That's if I don't get stuck - if I get stuck behind a big truck then it'll take me a lot longer.

PN92

Are there any tolls that are payable on the roads that you travel?‑‑‑No.

PN93

What about parking, is there any parking costs associated?‑‑‑No.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MR IZZO

PN94

So I think yes, I just want to recall, you said 20 minutes didn't you to get to work. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, about 20 minutes. Sometimes 15 but mostly 20.

PN95

What about in New Zealand, where you worked in New Zealand. How far were you from work when you were in - sorry, was it Kennedy - if you could actually just, I didn't get the full name of the place down. Could you just repeat the place that you used to live in New Zealand?‑‑‑Yes, I come from a place called Kennedy Bay, Coromandel in the Coromandel Peninsula, but I lived in Auckland for most of my life.

PN96

What was your job before you left - your last job before you left New Zealand?‑‑‑I was a customer service representative for a company called Henkel New Zealand.

PN97

Yes. They make hair care products, don't they?‑‑‑Yes, they do. Yes, they bought Schwarzkopf, yes.

PN98

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: That's pretty impressive, Mr Izzo.

PN99

MR IZZO: That's not really relevant to the proceedings but - - -?‑‑‑No.

PN100

What was your commute to work there?‑‑‑The same. I used to live in Papakura and I'd have to go to East Tamaki but that would take sometimes about half an hour to three quarters of an hour because of the traffic. Traffic congestion.

PN101

So it's - if we use, I suppose we've got to be careful using the word remote but it's less remote than where you are now, do you think? Is that right?‑‑‑This was extremely remote.

PN102

Yes. So I take it - am I correct in assuming that based on what you've mentioned today about where you are and the fact that at the moment you seem to be happy where you are. I take it you haven't sought jobs in other areas like Perth or Geraldton or Bunbury, places closer to Perth. I take it you haven't looked for jobs like that?‑‑‑No, that'd be silly. I'd have to move there because, you know, like South Hedland is like an 18 hour drive to Perth.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MR IZZO

PN103

Yes, yes, I'm sorry. I apologise for cutting you off. I'm not suggesting that you would commute there. I suppose what I was getting at is that you and your husband haven't - sorry, you and your partner haven't looked at moving to Perth or any of those places. You're kind of happy where you are. That's kind of what I was getting at?‑‑‑Well, we're not happy where we are but we can't move because of his mortgage. I mean the housing has devalued considerably in South Hedland. It's not worth - it's only worth, not even half the price of what he - it was valued at like five years ago.

PN104

If you'd just bear with me one moment?‑‑‑Hello?

PN105

Yes, yes, sorry. Just one moment, I think I'm almost finished my questions, I was just checking. If I can just ask a couple more questions. In terms of your partner, what's the job that he does?‑‑‑He works for Veolia picking up rubbish. What do you call those big containers of rubbish? You know, the - skips, yes. Yes, every day, he works - he works six days of the week, sometimes seven.

PN106

I think that's all the questions I had. Thank you very much for your time, Ms Brown?‑‑‑You're welcome. Am I still - - -

PN107

Yes, I think Ms Bhatt's now going to ask you some questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [10.47 AM]

PN108

MS BHATT: Ms Brown, good morning. My name is Ms Bhatt. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Very, very slightly. You've got a very soft voice.

PN109

Let's try again, is that better?‑‑‑That's much better.

PN110

Very good. Ms Brown, I appear for the Australian Industry Group in these proceedings, which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim and I have just a small number of questions for you regarding your statement. Now I understand from the evidence that you've just given that you've never lived in Perth. Is that right?‑‑‑I've never lived in Perth, no.

PN111

Can I take you to paragraph 7 of your statement, Ms Brown?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN112

I'm just going to read that out. It says:

PN113

All of the products in the shops here are more expensive than they are in Perth, including meat, vegetables, toiletries and cleaning products.

PN114

?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MS BHATT

PN115

But you're not saying that you've undertaken a systematic analysis with absolutely every product available in Perth versus the price of the same products in the shops in Hedland, have you?‑‑‑Well, I have been to Perth and I have shopped in Perth, especially for groceries and yes, everything is more expensive in Perth - I mean in South Hedland, you know, like - yes, definitely.

PN116

I understand that's your evidence but I'm not sure that you've answered my question so I'll ask it again?‑‑‑Okay.

PN117

You're not saying in your evidence that you've undertaken a systematic analysis of the price of absolutely every product available in Perth, versus the price of the same products in Hedland have you?‑‑‑I have not.

PN118

Now can I take you to paragraph 21 of your statement and I'll read that out. It says:

PN119

When we have medical problems other than minor problems, we have to go to Perth.

PN120

?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN121

Now obviously I've read your statement and I understand that your partner has recently had heart problems and has suffered some burns, and I also understand that you suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, so am I right - - -?‑‑‑You're breaking up, I can't - excuse me, you're just breaking up, I can't hear every word.

PN122

I'm sorry about that, I'll try again. I understand from your evidence that your partner has recently had some heart problems and suffered from burns, and that you suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, so am I - - -?‑‑‑I do.

PN123

Yes. So am I right in assuming that the evidence that you give at paragraph 21 of your statement, which I've just read out, is based on the specific health problems that you and your partner have recently experienced?‑‑‑As recent as October last year.

PN124

Yes, so it's based on that experience. Is that right?‑‑‑It is based on that experience. Well, you said - you said more than one experience.

PN125

Yes, no I understand that - - -?‑‑‑Having to go - yes, yes.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MS BHATT

PN126

Thank you. I have no further questions for Ms Brown?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN127

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Do any other employer representatives in Sydney have questions? Mr Tindley, in Melbourne?

PN128

MR TINDLEY: No, thanks, your Honour.

PN129

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife, any - sorry.

PN130

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Ms Brown, it's Bull DP speaking. You say you work 15 hours a week. Is that by choice or is that the only hours you can get to work?‑‑‑Well, they're my contract hours. I can work more if I want to, if they need me they do, I do work something more than 15. But my contract hours are 15.

PN131

But are you looking to work more hours or are you happy with the 15?‑‑‑Not particularly, you know, due to my age I like to have a little bit of a rest, yes. 15's okay for the time being. I can't get - I do that because I can't get a pension here. I need to have some kind of income for myself. So that's why I do it.

PN132

Your partner, what income does he earn roughly, do you know?‑‑‑He earns about 1500 - 1300 to 1500 a week depending on how many days he has to work.

PN133

Right, so you say he's a casual that works six to seven days a week?‑‑‑Yes.

PN134

He's got a mortgage of $250,000 as a casual?‑‑‑Yes, because he - yes, because he used to be on a much, much higher wage, you know, five years ago.

PN135

I see, all right. How long has he been working as a casual for?‑‑‑Coming up to about two and a half years, three years. Since he lost his job at Laing O'Rourke, which is - I think it's probably about three years ago. And then he couldn't find another job for about six months and then he got this job at Veolia where he is, so he's a casual - been a casual there. He's applying for - you know, to become permanent which would give him a little bit of, you know, leeway for time off and stuff like that and sick leave, but he doesn't get any of that at the moment. He just has to go to work and come home.

*** MAKERE BROWN XXN MS BHATT

PN136

Did you say that your family live in South Hedland or Port Hedland with you, or in that location?‑‑‑One of my daughters - one of my daughters lives here in South Hedland.

PN137

Thank you very much, Ms Brown?‑‑‑You're welcome.

PN138

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: It's Kovacic DP here, Ms Brown. Just follow up question to one of the questions that Bull DP just asked you. In your witness you refer to your granddaughter and that she'd like to attend university. I take it from what you've just said that she actually lives in Hedland?‑‑‑Yes, she does.

PN139

Thank you?‑‑‑You're welcome.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE [10.54 AM]

PN140

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Ms Brown, it's Mr Scaife again, the lawyer for the SDA?‑‑‑Yes.

PN141

I just have one follow up question for you. When you were speaking to Mr Izzo earlier, he asked you whether or not where you live now is less remote than when you lived and worked in Auckland. You said that where you live now is extremely remote. What did you mean by that?‑‑‑Well, it's just a long way to drive anywhere, you know, like you just drive for hours and hours before - if you want to go - if you want to go shopping, for instance, the closes next town is Karratha which is two hours away. The other option is Broome which is six hours away, so yes I call it extremely remote compared to where I come from.

PN142

How does that compare to where you come from?‑‑‑Well, where I come from I lived in the city, put it that way.

PN143

Sorry, what was that last part, Ms Brown?‑‑‑Where I come from, I lived in the city, so I lived in Auckland city, so in comparison there is no comparison.

PN144

Thank you, Deputy President. Thank you, Ms Brown, those are all the questions?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN145

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you, Ms Brown. It's the Deputy President here, you're now excused and you're free to go so we'll just hang up on the call, thank you?‑‑‑Okay, thanks a lot, bye.

*** MAKERE BROWN RXN MR SCAIFE

PN146

Bye.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.56 AM]

PN147

So I take it we now have an hour to cool our heels, Mr Scaife?

PN148

MR SCAIFE: Unfortunately, yes. Ms Giltrap doesn't have her break until 10 am Australian Western Standard Time, so perhaps we will - we might make some inquiries in that break and see if we can bring something on earlier and we'll perhaps let your Associates know, if we can do that.

PN149

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: You might also confer about the objections issue as well.

PN150

MR SCAIFE: Yes.

PN151

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We might just do that stocktake when we come back. So can I suggest that we might resume at five to 12 to just revisit those housekeeping issues.

PN152

MR SCAIFE: Yes.

PN153

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: And then go from there.

PN154

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, your Honour.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.57 AM]

RESUMED [11.57 AM]

PN155

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife, any update on those housekeeping issues?

PN156

MR SCAIFE: Yes, Deputy President. In terms of timetabling we'll obviously move to Ms Giltrap shortly and then we're hoping to fit in Mr Carter who was scheduled for Wednesday morning thereafter, before we adjourn for lunch.

PN157

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

*** MAKERE BROWN RXN MR SCAIFE

PN158

MR SCAIFE: Then Ms Simons who is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon, we're hoping to schedule her in after Ms Nolan this afternoon between Ms Nolan and Mr Lenton. That will leave the SDA with three witnesses who won't have been dealt with today. We're making inquiries with Ms Cheng and Ms Churchill about trying to shift them to sometime early tomorrow and Ms Hughes-Gage as my friend indicated, if we can deal with his concerns overnight then she won't be required. So that's where we're up to in terms of programming today.

PN159

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Right.

PN160

MR SCAIFE: On the objections to the evidence, would you like me to address now, Deputy President?

PN161

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes, please.

PN162

MR SCAIFE: The objections that are made in relation to the SDA's witnesses are the first and the third, so the statements of Ms Hughes-Gage and Ms Cheng. We accept that - we concede that the evidence that is given by - if I can deal with Ms Hughes-Gage first.

PN163

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

PN164

MR SCAIFE: So Ms Hughes-Gage at paragraph 21 is giving evidence about what she was being told by her friends. We concede that that's hearsay evidence, Deputy President. We only say that the evidence that the lay witnesses has given is about the subjective experiences that they have of living in those towns, part of that experience is the fact that they belong to a community where fees and charges are much higher than they would be in regional centres or in capital cities. So we're not seeking - we're not withdrawing that part of the statement but we accept that the Commission will need to consider what weight it gives to that paragraph in view of the concession that we've just made.

PN165

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo, do you have anything you wish to say around that?

PN166

MR IZZO: Yes, Deputy President. The issue essentially is the same throughout the three. We accept that there are a variety of materials that have been filed that wouldn't strictly comply with the rules of evidence and we're happy to make submissions as to weight. The difficulty that we have with these three particular paragraphs is that not only are they hearsay evidence but they relate to matters that it's going to be very difficult for us to test in cross-examination, because we don't know for instance the nature of the property that's - if we take paragraph 21, the nature of the property that's being rented.

PN167

We'd likely need to start asking details about the circumstances of this particular person in order to try and test the nature of that evidence and its relevance to these proceedings. It's very difficult to that when the person's not actually here to ask them questions about those matters. That really rings true for the other two matters as well, but if I just stay on paragraph 21. So that's why we've taken particular objection to that paragraph. We do press the objection because primarily we think we will be unable to effectively test it in cross-examination and that's not the case with some of the other matters that might otherwise be inadmissible.

PN168

I just note that I said 21, the whole paragraph, that's because I assumed the paragraph ended at the end of the page. There's actually a reference to - overleaf to the witness and their son. I'm not objecting to that. It's the evidence about the rental and financial circumstances of other people who aren't here giving evidence, and that's why it's pressed.

PN169

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo, one option would be for the Bench to not strike out the particular sentence but to ultimately a matter for people to make submissions as to what, if any, weight might be given to the particular offending sentence, paragraph, by the parties. What's your view in terms of that particular approach?

PN170

MR IZZO: The difficulty we had with that and that's the approach we assume's going to relate to everything else. It's more that I suppose because of these difficulties and our inability to effectively test it, our client's position is effectively somewhat prejudice if it goes in and is given any weight. If it's not going to be given weight, then it probably should be struck out, and so that's why we maintain the objection, Deputy President.

PN171

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife, is there anything you want to say about the other two witness statements before - - -

PN172

MR SCAIFE: The only matter I can address you on is Ms Cheng's statement which is paragraph 13 is the objection which is under tab 8 of our court book. Ms Cheng is talking generally about being aware that other people are in Port Hedland that she knows receive allowances for various disabilities. Again we concede that it's hearsay evidence but I won't go so far as to describe the provision of allowances to workers in Port Hedland as a notorious fact, but we don't think that that evidence is particularly controversial when read in light of some of the materials that have otherwise been filed, but we accept that the parties will need to make submissions as to weight and that's a matter for the Commission how much weight it attaches to it.

PN173

MR IZZO: Deputy President, again this is a somewhat different example but tends to illustrate our point. If we were to effectively test this, and I might note our objection's not to the first part of the paragraph, it's actually just the last six words to "compensate them for living in Hedland". If we were to test that we'd need to ask things like what's the industrial instrument applicable, what does it say, we might want to understand what that industrial instrument says to understand how that interrelates with the rest of the wages. There's a whole variety of questions we could ask to try and understand why it is that they're paid this, for instance, to compensate them.

PN174

None of those questions can be asked, and that's why we're not going to cavil with the fact that some people receive allowances in Port Hedland. People receive allowances across the country. So we don't object to the beginning of the paragraph but if we go to the purpose of that, that may be prejudicial to our case and it's just again something that we really have no ability to test in cross-examination and for that reason we think it should be given no weight and accordingly should be struck out.

PN175

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Anything in respect of Ms Rankin's statement other than what you - sorry, Ms Knight?

PN176

MS KNIGHT: Thank you, Commission. I have taken a moment to review the material that I received this morning and Mr Izzo has objected to paragraph 11, the second last and last sentences of Jessica Rankin's statement. The ASU doesn't object to the objection. We are actually in a position to say that we can concede those two sentences.

PN177

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: So you're happy for those to be - that objection - for the deletion to be made?

PN178

MS KNIGHT: The deletion of those two sentences.

PN179

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Right.

PN180

MS KNIGHT: And if you're in a position to listen to some of the other issues around the housekeeping, I've also got some comments for you for Jessica and Malcolm when you're ready.

PN181

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Well, you may as well address those now and then - - -

PN182

MS KNIGHT: So there were concerns I think that you raised this morning about the time being early and too late, because of the availability of the room. Unfortunately, Jessica Rankin is actually working today in an Aboriginal community called Yandeyarra. It literally has no telephone reception and so her availability is based on when she'll be in reception. So she's there from eight to 2.30 our time - sorry, Western Australian time. Hence the reason to need to contact her before 10 and after 4.30, so the only other possibility I have, sir, for Ms Rankin is Friday provided I can give her some significant notice.

PN183

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: If I understood what you said, our time after 10 am she'd be available?

PN184

MS KNIGHT: Sorry, she's not available between 10 and 4.30 our time, simply because she's out of phone reception area and not available all day on Thursday.

PN185

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Well, I don't think we can - because of the other commitments that one of the members has, that we can accommodate that unfortunately.

PN186

MS KNIGHT: Sir, our only other possibility is Friday.

PN187

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Friday. It's a bit awkward in the sense that you're sort of partway through closing submissions by that stage.

PN188

MS KNIGHT: I do understand. It is the nature of the work in this particular industry. She's posted to particular areas in WA and this is the area she's posted to this week.

PN189

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We'll see what we can do in terms of accommodating doing it tomorrow. I think that's preferable to shifting Ms Rankin to Friday, perhaps we'll come back to that this afternoon after the luncheon adjournment and just confirm the arrangements. We might just confer for a few minutes - sorry, did you have other housekeeping issues?

PN190

MS KNIGHT: The only other issue was for Malcolm Charles Parker. He's unfortunately very uncomfortable about taking calls during work. There are disability issues around this. His hours of work are eight to five our time, hence the reasoning for the proposed time there for Malcolm, and Friday is also his day off. So we ask for him to be scheduled at 5 pm tomorrow, which is also outside the times that you've proposed.

PN191

COMMISSIONER BISSETT: Does he have a lunch break?

PN192

MS KNIGHT: It is a possibility I could persuade him. I've just got to give him that call after five today.

PN193

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: If you could that would be helpful. Otherwise we're going to have potentially a long gap tomorrow afternoon before we get to Mr Parker and I've got something listed at 4.30 and the Deputy President has as well. We might come back to you on that one as well, but if - it might be helpful if you could explore whether we could do the luncheon.

PN194

MS KNIGHT: I will, Commissioner. Deputy President.

PN195

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: That means we're talking his lunch, we're probably talking about - depending what time he takes his lunch but assume it's 12.30, that's 2.30, it might clash wish Ms Simons.

PN196

MS KNIGHT: I think - for Malcolm I think his main concerns are he has a hearing disability which he has mentioned in his statement and being on the road and taking calls on the road is something that is quite distressing for him. But if we can give him that comfort that that will be understood I can see what I can do and try to persuade him again.

PN197

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We might just check in terms of what's possible in terms of - at our end, if we're going to have a considerable break tomorrow afternoon, what I have listed for 4.30, I might be able to bring that forward in a way that still enables the 5 o'clock. So we might come back to you perhaps after the luncheon adjournment or later this afternoon just to clarify whether that's so, that might save you a phone call on that one.

PN198

MS KNIGHT: I appreciate your patience, Senior Deputy President and I will make those calls. Thank you.

PN199

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thanks, Ms Knight. Mr Scaife.

PN200

MR SCAIFE: Sorry, yes, Deputy President, I can just clarify that we are going to try to move Ms Simons over to today so that will free up more space tomorrow afternoon. And I can also say that I had misread my friend's objection to Ms Cheng's statement. I thought the objection was to the whole paragraph, so I can just - this is tab 8 of our court book, paragraph 13, I understand the objection is to the last words, "to compensate them for living in Hedland".

PN201

MR IZZO: That's correct.

PN202

MR SCAIFE: We're happy for that to be struck out.

PN203

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Where it's agreed that the words be struck out, so those words at the tail end of Ms Cheng's, paragraph 13 of her witness statement, and also the sentences in respect of Ms Rankin's witness statement, they'll be struck out. In respect of Ms Hughes-Gage witness statement we won't strike the words out but we'll anticipate submissions as to the weight that can be attached to those particular words. So we can now go to the next witness.

PN204

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, yes, Deputy President. So I call Ms Marites Giltrap.

PN205

THE ASSOCIATE: Hello, is that Ms Giltrap?

PN206

MS GILTRAP: Yes.

PN207

THE ASSOCIATE: Hello, Ms Giltrap, my name's - - -

PN208

MS GILTRAP: Yes, good morning.

PN209

THE ASSOCIATE: My name's Grace, I'm calling from the Fair Work Commission. I've just dialled you directly into the hearing that you're giving evidence in today?

PN210

MS GILTRAP Yes.

PN211

THE ASSOCIATE: I just need to administer an affirmation. So could you please state your full name and address?

PN212

MS GILTRAP: Yes, Marites Giltrap, I'm 49 and I'm living in (address supplied).

PN213

THE ASSOCIATE: Unfortunately we can't hear you very well. Are you able to turn the volume up a little bit on your phone or get a bit closer to the phone, or not have it on speaker if it is on speaker?

PN214

MS GILTRAP: Yes, okay.

PN215

THE ASSOCIATE: I might just ask you to state your full name and address again if you wouldn't mind?

PN216

MS GILTRAP: Hello?

PN217

THE ASSOCIATE: Hello.

PN218

MS GILTRAP: Can you hear me? Yes.

PN219

THE ASSOCIATE: I might just ask you to state your full name and address again if you wouldn't mind?

PN220

MS GILTRAP: My name is Marites Giltrap, I am 49 years old and I am living in (address supplied).

PN221

THE ASSOCIATE: Just hold on one moment please.

PN222

MS GILTRAP: Yes.

PN223

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Giltrap, could you please repeat after me. I'm sorry, can you hear me?

PN224

MS GILTRAP: Yes.

PN225

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Giltrap, can you hear me?

PN226

MS GILTRAP: Yes, I can hear you.

PN227

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please repeat after me?

PN228

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: It's not a very good line. I wonder whether we try calling it again, just to see if can get a better quality of line.

PN229

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Giltrap, I'm just going to hang up and call you back and just see if we can get a better sound quality.

PN230

MS GILTRAP: Okay, yes.

PN231

THE ASSOCIATE: We'll call you back in a moment.

PN232

MS GILTRAP: Okay, yes.

PN233

MR SCAIFE: It sounds like she's on speakerphone, like she's not talking into the - - -

PN234

THE ASSOCIATE: I might just mention that to her again. Ms Giltrap, are you there?

PN235

MS GILTRAP: Yes, I'm here.

PN236

THE ASSOCIATE: So it's Grace calling again from the Fair Work Commission. Can I just check, you're not on a speakerphone are you?

PN237

MS GILTRAP: No.

PN238

THE ASSOCIATE: Excellent, thank you. I just need to administer the affirmation to you. So, sorry just again for the record could you state your full name and address?

PN239

MS GILTRAP: My name is Marites Giltrap, I am living (address supplied).

PN240

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you, and could you please repeat after me.

<MARITES GILTRAP, AFFIRMED [12.17 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE [12.17 PM]

PN241

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Ms Giltrap. This is David Scaife, I'm the lawyer for the SDA. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you, sir.

PN242

Ms Giltrap, did you give a witness statement in support of the SDA's claim for a district allowance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN243

Do you have a copy of that witness statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I have (indistinct).

PN244

Is that witness statement three pages long?‑‑‑Yes, it is three, yes, three pages.

*** MARITES GILTRAP XN MR SCAIFE

PN245

Is it 28 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, 28 paragraphs.

PN246

Is it signed and dated 4 April 2018?‑‑‑Yes, 4 April 2018.

PN247

Is that your signature - - -?‑‑‑I'm sorry?

PN248

Is that your signature, Ms Giltrap?‑‑‑Yes.

PN249

Is the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN250

Thank you, I tender that witness statement.

PN251

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Ms Marites Giltrap, which comprises three pages, 28 paragraphs and is dated 4 April exhibit 2.

EXHIBIT #2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MARITES GILTRAP DATED 04/04/2018

PN252

MR SCAIFE: Ms Giltrap, you're just going to be asked some questions by some other people now. Could you make sure to hold the phone close to your mouth so that we can hear you clearly on this end?‑‑‑Yes.

PN253

Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [12.19 PM]

PN254

MR IZZO: Hi, Ms Giltrap. My name's Louis Izzo. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you, sir.

PN255

Great. Ms Giltrap, I take it you've been living in South Hedland - you say you've been living in South Hedland since about 2005, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN256

Where were you before 2005?‑‑‑I was in the Philippines and I was married 2005, I married an Australian - he's an Australian so I (indistinct) - - -

*** MARITES GILTRAP XXN MR IZZO

PN257

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Ms Marites, it's Kovacic DP here. I'm going to have to ask you to speak very clearly into the phone because we're losing what you're saying. We can't hear you properly?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN258

So if you might just start again, thank you?‑‑‑Okay, thank you. I was in the Philippines and - - -

PN259

MR IZZO: Sorry, and you said that you married your husband who's an Australian. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, in 2005.

PN260

So what, you moved out to South Hedland with your husband in 2005, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN261

So before 2005 you were the whole time in the Philippines?‑‑‑Yes, and I arrived here - yes, August 2005.

PN262

August, is that what you said?‑‑‑Yes.

PN263

So you moved to South Hedland, was that because of your husband's work?‑‑‑Yes, because of my husband's work. He was working in gold in Port Hedland. He's a truck driver, he's a truck driver.

PN264

Sorry, he was working where?‑‑‑Before in the company is called - because he was a truck driver, road train truck driver, so he was working in (indistinct) Port Hedland, I forget the - - -

PN265

Did you say gold? Is that what you said?‑‑‑Yes, because I forget the name, the company, because he was working - - -

PN266

Was it a mining company, was it?‑‑‑Yes, it's a mining company. He was driving road train trucks.

PN267

Driving road train trucks, is that what you said?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN268

So he was doing that in 2005, so you moved there because of his work. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, yes, we live here in South Hedland, yes.

PN269

Then you moved to - you talk about moving to a number of other places?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARITES GILTRAP XXN MR IZZO

PN270

Such as Mandurah and Alice Springs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN271

Why did you move to those places?‑‑‑Because he was working and what's the name of the company, and then (indistinct) I apply a job and (indistinct) from 2006, I think seven months I was working in McDonalds and then I work in Coles for nearly 10 months and then back to McDonalds again. And then he was working (indistinct) because he was bringing the fuel.

PN272

Sorry, if I can just stop you there. So you were working Coles and McDonalds and that was at Mandurah was it?‑‑‑No, in South Hedland.

PN273

In South Hedland?‑‑‑And then (indistinct) - yes, and then my husband has quit his job and he get a job in Southern Cross in the mining, so we were in Mandurah, so I was working Mandurah (indistinct) for nearly two years. (Indistinct).

PN274

Sorry, I apologise, if I can just ask you, so you moved to Mandurah because he got a job with Southern Cross mining company down there. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, yes, and he was a fly in-fly out.

PN275

He chose to - when you say quit his job, was that because the job in Mandurah was better than the job in South Hedland?‑‑‑No, we moved there because of his job and (indistinct) there and you know friends in Mandurah, so we decide to move in Mandurah.

PN276

So you went to Mandurah, then you moved to Alice Springs, is that right?‑‑‑No, from 2009, from Mandurah - 2009 we come back here in South Hedland again because he liked to drive the trucks so he apply to Caltex fuel, because he's doing the fuel. The manager arrange him that he want to work here, back in Port Hedland, so we come back here in 2009 and then I was - I apply again in McDonalds and then in 2011 we going to Alice Springs.

PN277

So if I can just stop there. You went back to South Hedland because your husband likes driving the trucks, so he wanted to go back to the jobs that were in South Hedland. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, because he like truck driving, so he got to - he working here in Caltex.

*** MARITES GILTRAP XXN MR IZZO

PN278

Was it also because he - does he like South Hedland, is that why?‑‑‑Yes, because the job is here and he likes truck driving, so - because when he was working in Southern Cross he was in underground but he like most truck driving, so we come back here. We bought a house in Mandurah and we're renting a house. But at that time 2009, the houses here are very expensive, so we decide to buy a caravan and yes, we live in the caravan here from 2009.

PN279

But now you're renting a house, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, we're renting a house because we sold the caravan. Again we sold our house in 2015, yes. Alice Springs we come back - it's very confusing because my husband (indistinct) for work and then 2014, from Alice Springs I didn't work McDonalds there, I was working in Hungry Jacks for nearly two years and then we come back here in South Hedland, and then I was working again in McDonalds and he's working Linfox. We decide - no, (indistinct) other company, Linfox, lost the job of FMG, so yes, and then he transfer to Perth to Linfox, so we decide to move back in Mandurah and we live in the caravan - in the caravan park, yes.

PN280

You lived in a caravan in Mandurah, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, because we had a caravan and - and that time I have also operation in Mandurah, (indistinct) operation, so I always - back to McDonalds.

PN281

How much does your husband earn in his job, say per week?‑‑‑Because he's the one who control the - I think it's more 40 plus, around 40 plus, which is a truck driver.

PN282

Forty plus?‑‑‑Yes, 40 per hour I think.

PN283

$40 an hour?‑‑‑Yes.

PN284

Is he the main income earner in your family? Does he earn more than you?‑‑‑Yes, he earn more than me. Yes, I'm just working McDonalds.

PN285

So part of the reason - so is part of the reason you're in South Hedland is because for both of your work, because he's getting more money so it works out for you living in South Hedland at the moment. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN286

Now you refer to - do you have any - sorry, I'll start again. Do you have any plans to leave South Hedland at the moment?‑‑‑(Indistinct) now my husband has had an operation (indistinct) of the shoulder, his operation in South Hedland Hospital last (indistinct) 2018, his operation and I'm not sure if he will - if we will stay here. He cannot work now because he has - he just have an operation (indistinct).

PN287

So he's just had an operation so you're not sure whether he's going to still work in South Hedland, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

*** MARITES GILTRAP XXN MR IZZO

PN288

So if that's the cases what, you think you might move somewhere else for him to get a different job. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN289

So it will depend on what happens with his job?‑‑‑Yes, it depends on his - at the moment he's - yes, (indistinct) and he has no (indistinct) pay the compensation, so at the moment he has sick leave only, and then yes, and then I think the union or he's in court now for that pay, but we have a savings for the (indistinct), because at the moment we're not get (indistinct), because he has a rental office from Linfox(?) before, and now that he has operation he's not working; he has no rental report from company. So (indistinct) for this boat.

PN290

Sure. Can I just you a question about the physiotherapy cost? You said it cost $70 per session?‑‑‑Yes.

PN291

Is that your initial consultation or - how many physiotherapy sessions did you go to?‑‑‑I'm not - because I'm not 100 per cent, but I'm sure they're last year, but this one I do not report to the work but - until now (indistinct). I don't have any records (indistinct) in my arms, in my shoulders too. I don't know - - -

PN292

Sorry, if I can just interrupt you, because you may not have heard my question. I'm just interested - you talk in your statement about going to physiotherapy?‑‑‑Yes.

PN293

How many times did you go to the physio? More than once?‑‑‑I went to Sonic Clinic, and I went to - we have a private doctor here, so if it was very bad, my left arm, so I had physiotherapy; I had a (indistinct) doctor; I had muscle therapy, but it helped. But now I'm going to have appointment and (indistinct) is coming 4 May for my visit (indistinct) last year - (indistinct) problem with my thigh, I don't know, because I still have pain in my back.

PN294

Sure. No further questions.

PN295

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Do any other employer representatives have any questions? In Melbourne, Mr Tindley? Do you have any questions, Mr Tindley?

PN296

MR TINDLEY: Sorry, no, your Honour.

PN297

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you. Mr Scaife?

*** MARITES GILTRAP XXN MR IZZO

PN298

MR SCAIFE: No questions in re‑examination, your Honour.

PN299

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms Giltrap. You are now excused and you are now free to go, so we'll just hang up the phone, and have a good rest of the day. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.32 PM]

PN300

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: So next, Mr Scaife?

PN301

MR SCAIFE: Yes, if we could call David Carter. His statement is at tab 9 of our book.

PN302

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?

PN303

MR CARTER: David John Carter, (address supplied).

<DAVID JOHN CARTER, AFFIRMED [12.35 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE [12.36 PM]

PN304

MR SCAIFE: Mr Carter, it's David Scaife here, the lawyer for the SDA. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑You're a bit quiet. If you can somehow turn yourself up?

PN305

All right, well I will try to at least bring the microphone closer. Is that any better?‑‑‑Not really, no. I can hear you, but you are quiet.

PN306

Okay, well we'll see how we go?‑‑‑No worries.

PN307

If you need anybody to speak louder, just let them know, okay, Mr Carter?‑‑‑Not a problem.

PN308

Mr Carter, did you give a witness statement in support of the SDA's claim for district allowances?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN309

Do you have a copy of that witness statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XN MR SCAIFE

PN310

Is that witness statement - it should run to four pages and 43 paragraphs?‑‑‑It does.

PN311

The copy that we have on file here is an unsigned and undated copy. Is that the same as the copy in front of you?‑‑‑The one I have is unsigned, but I have sent a signed copy to the lawyers. That's through registered mail.

PN312

By registered mail, okay. We will provide a copy of that signed version to the Commission once we have it, but otherwise, the copy you have in front of you at the moment is four pages, 43 paragraphs, and unsigned and undated, is it?‑‑‑Yes. The one I have is like the one you have in front of you, but there is a signed and dated one in the mail.

PN313

Thank you, Mr Carter?‑‑‑And it should get there today.

PN314

Yes. Is the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN315

I tender that statement.

PN316

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Mr David Carter, which comprises four pages and 43 paragraphs as exhibit 3.

EXHIBIT #3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DAVID CARTER COMPRISING FOUR PAGES AND 43 PARAGRAPHS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [12.38 PM]

PN317

MS BHATT: Mr Carter, good morning. My name is Ms Bhatt. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, but you are a little quiet.

PN318

If you can't hear any of my questions just ask me to repeat them?‑‑‑No, that's suddenly got better.

PN319

Very good. I appear in these proceedings for the Australian Industry Group, which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim, and I have just a small number of questions for you regarding your witness statement?‑‑‑You're dropping and out.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MS BHATT

PN320

Sorry, Mr Carter. Can I take you to paragraph 8 of your witness statement?‑‑‑Paragraph 8.

PN321

And I'm looking at the first sentence there. It says: "I spend $1200 a month on my landline and internet." Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I can see that.

PN322

Mr Carter, who is your phone and internet provider? For example, is it Telstra?‑‑‑No, I'm with iiNet.

PN323

Is it your understand that iiNet gives you the option of different monthly internet plans which give you varying, for example, speeds or download limits?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN324

And is it your evidence that you have chosen a plan that costs $1200 per month because of the inclusions that it gives you, or the options it gives you?‑‑‑Well I've only just noticed this, but it should actually be $120 a month, not $1200 a month.

PN325

All right. So is it the case then that paragraph 8 of your statement should be amended to say: I spend $120 a month on my landline and internet?‑‑‑Yes.

PN326

Thank you. Mr Carter, you've lived in Carnarvon for approximately 18 years now, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN327

Where did you live before that?‑‑‑Burringurrah Aboriginal Community.

PN328

How long were you there for?‑‑‑Two and a half years.

PN329

Have you ever lived in Perth?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN330

When was that?‑‑‑From '89 till '98.

PN331

So you left Perth about 20 years ago?‑‑‑Yes.

PN332

If I take you then to paragraph 10 of your witness statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN333

Looking at the first sentence, it says: "The fresh produce isn't the same quality as it is in Perth?"---Yes, that's right.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MS BHATT

PN334

Can I take it that that evidence is based on your experience of having lived in Perth some 20 years ago, is that right?‑‑‑No. It's actually my experience of actually being a fruit and veg manager and having to actually sell produce that's not actually under quality and working in that department as well that - basically what happens is we will get produce in the morning; it'll come off the truck; we'll open the truck, open the chiller unit and the produce. Some of it will be ruined. Sometimes things like stone fruit, they'll arrive in the morning and they'll look all right. By about 12 o'clock in the afternoon they're starting to turn, and by about 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon you're pretty much ready to throw them in the bin.

PN335

Mr Carter, in the 18 years that you've lived at Carnarvon, you haven't needed to travel to Perth for an operation, have you?‑‑‑No.

PN336

If you have a look at paragraph 41 of your statement?‑‑‑(Indistinct) to, yes.

PN337

Sorry, paragraph 41?‑‑‑Paragraph 41 - I'm at paragraph 41.

PN338

Very good. I'm looking at the second sentence. It says if you needed to have an operation you would need to go to Perth?‑‑‑Yes.

PN339

So I take it that there you're talking about a major operation or a surgery of some sort, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, that is right, but it's also, like, sometimes there are minor things that they just don't have the equipment here to actually look after you with. So that's very situational as well. I mean, it's like, you know, if you had heart problems or anything like that, you would definitely have to go to Perth, but even things like dialysis and things like that, you know, you can't be treated here - - -

PN340

And that's your understanding - - -?‑‑‑ - - - properly.

PN341

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut your answer off?‑‑‑Sorry, can you repeat that?

PN342

And that evidence is based on your understanding because of things that other people have told you, is that right?‑‑‑Oh, it's other people who I know that have had to go to Perth to have things done to them.

PN343

Thank you. I have no further questions for Mr Carter.

PN344

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo?

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MS BHATT

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [12.44 PM]

PN345

MR IZZO: Mr Carter, my name is Luis Izzo. I'm representing the NSW Business Chamber and Australian Business Industrial in these proceedings. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you at the moment.

PN346

Thanks. Just let me know if that changes?‑‑‑Not a problem.

PN347

You gave some evidence about living in Perth from '89 to '98. Is that immediately before you moved to Carnarvon?‑‑‑I moved to - I left Perth in '98 and I was out at Burringurrah Community from '98 till - right till the end of 2000, like just before the 2001 New Year's, and then I came into Carnarvon to live.

PN348

Sure. So why did you leave Perth to go to the - and what was the name of that community, the Aboriginal community?‑‑‑Burringurrah.

PN349

Burringurrah. Why did you leave Perth to go there?‑‑‑Well, I was working in Perth as a boilermaker and the opportunity came up because I worked at TAFE, as a TAFE lecturer, and so I took it. And once that contract finished I moved into Carnarvon because actually we like it up here and also as well, moving back to Perth at the time wasn't an option.

PN350

Why wasn't moving back to Perth an option?‑‑‑Well, at that - well, I had like a house full of stuff by that stage and all the rest of it. I mean basically I came back into Perth - I mean, not Perth, sorry, back into Carnarvon, started boiler making again and then worked my way into working for Woolworths and I've been here ever since.

PN351

And at this stage is that kind of where you're happy to stay at the moment or have you been looking to leave, or you're happy staying where you are?‑‑‑No, I'm happy to stay put. I'm happy to stay here.

PN352

Can I just ask you a question about the - you were asked some questions by Ms Bhatt about the medical facility. Am I correct in understanding there have been some redevelopments, some upgrades to the medical facility at Carnarvon. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, there have been upgrades and things like that done over the recent times. Yes.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MR IZZO

PN353

Can you just take us through the upgrades since you've been in Carnarvon? You've obviously been there a little while. What kind of upgrades did they make to the medical facilities?‑‑‑Well, I couldn't give you like the full upgrade but they've basically improved the building. I know they've brought in a bit more equipment and all the rest of it, but I couldn't give you like the full up - what they've fully done there.

PN354

Sure, and are you aware of so for instance would it sound about right if kind of there were upgrades to the dental health clinic? Does that sound like something that you recall seeing?‑‑‑Not for the dental part, no.

PN355

Sure, and when was that upgrade completed, do you know?‑‑‑Last year I think.

PN356

Right, okay?‑‑‑Unfortunately we don't have a local paper anymore where they used to announce all that kind of stuff.

PN357

Sure. Just bear with me, Mr Carter. I've no further questions.

PN358

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Do any of the other employer representatives have any questions?

PN359

Mr Tindley? No?

PN360

MR TINDLEY: Yes, your Honour, if I could.

PN361

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TINDLEY [12.48 PM]

PN362

MR TINDLEY: Just a couple of questions.

PN363

Mr Carter, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes I can.

PN364

My name is Nick Tindley. I'm appearing on behalf of the Australian Retailers Association and Master Growers of Australia. I just have a couple of quick questions for you?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MR TINDLEY

PN365

You were asked about your statement in relation to fresh produce. Is your position in relation to fresh produce limited to the produce that's available at Woolworths in Carnarvon?‑‑‑Well, there is another supermarket here in Carnarvon but they - I don't really go there because their produce isn't that flash either and I mean there are growers. I mean like there are plantations up here but unfortunately what happens with all the stuff that comes from the plantations, they load it up here, they send it to Perth and then it comes back again. Excuse me, I need to have a cough. Okay, I'm back.

PN366

A number of those plantations sell from the plantation don't they?‑‑‑Yes, some of them do. Yes.

PN367

That's part of what's known as the Gascoyne Fruit Trail?‑‑‑Yes, I believe so.

PN368

You've heard of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN369

You would have also heard of the Gascoyne Growers Market?‑‑‑Yes, that only runs for a couple of months per year.

PN370

A couple of months, is that your evidence?‑‑‑A couple. Yes, a few or a couple. A few months. Yes, it only runs at certain periods of the year.

PN371

Would it be six months?‑‑‑I'm not really sure because it sort of - it changes.

PN372

Does May to October sound correct?‑‑‑Probably about - yes, about right.

PN373

Thank you. So there are other options for accessing fresh produce in Carnarvon?‑‑‑You can access produce from other places in Carnarvon but when you go to like say one of these grower, the grower markets, you are limited to what they sell and because they only grow certain produce up this way you're limited to what they have - to what they sell. And in a lot of times what they do sell is what - is actually like their seconds. Like the good stuff goes to, say, Woolworths, Coles or to wherever, and basically they sell what they can't sell.

PN374

On what basis are you making that assertion?‑‑‑On the basis that sometimes the quality of it isn't that good and also like you - like I said, you can only buy what they grow.

PN375

But you don't have direct knowledge of how they choose to allocate their produce?‑‑‑No, no, not directly. No.

PN376

Thank you?‑‑‑I mean I - - -

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MR TINDLEY

PN377

And you're aware that 80 per cent of Western Australia's fruit and vegetables are grown in or around Carnarvon?‑‑‑Yes, I am aware of that but like I just said - - -

PN378

Thank you?‑‑‑- - - not all of it is sold here.

PN379

I'll be very brief with this. You also talk about the cinema in Carnarvon showing movies but the movies coming out a lot later than they do in Perth. What do you mean by a lot later?‑‑‑Well, basically when they do have a movie here we - it's not guaranteed that it's going to be like one of the latest releases. It could be - and a lot of times it's older movies, sort of all arty type movies. It's basically - it's not like when you're in Perth when you've got - like you'll go to a cinema and you'll have all like the latest ones. You basically - here it's just crossed fingers and hope for what you can get.

PN380

Just so your clear, the question was what do you mean by "a lot later"?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN381

Mr Carter, what do you mean by a lot later? Is there an estimate that you have in terms of the number of weeks, months? Is it a week, is it a month, is it a year?‑‑‑I couldn't give you like a proper - like a time. It varies but you - it's sort of like you can't - I can't really put a thing on - like a time on that but it's usually later than what we - yes, sometimes we do get things but we don't get like the A grade blockbusters that you guys see.

PN382

So it's not correct then to say that the movies come out a lot later. You're saying now that it's some of the movies come out a lot later?‑‑‑Well, it all depends on what movies they actually bring up here. I mean we have no choice on what they bring - they decide to show. So, yes, it all depends. I mean you can't sort of like say - it's not, like I said, you can go to like a large cinema block where they have all the movies on in different cinemas, basically because they've got one screen. They can only show one movie, so.

PN383

Thank you?‑‑‑Excuse me again, I have to cough. Excuse me. I'm sorry, I'm back.

PN384

Mr Carter, you've corrected your statement to say you're spending $120 a month on your internet?‑‑‑Yes.

PN385

And landline?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER XXN MR TINDLEY

PN386

And that that internet service is of a good quality?‑‑‑Well, it's reasonable. We're about to get the AB - the NBN but the problem with up here, it drops off every now and again. It drops off, comes back. The connection slows down. It's not a very good - we're not - at the moment not getting a very good connection. Hopefully that will change next month.

PN387

So the NBN is coming next month is it?‑‑‑Yes, May 19th apparently.

PN388

And that option will be available to you?‑‑‑Yes it will.

PN389

Thank you, no further questions.

PN390

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Mr Carter, it's Deputy President Bull speaking. Your statement says that you work at Woolworths as a meat manager. Are you on a salary or an hourly rate?‑‑‑No, I'm not - I am not salary. I'm wages.

PN391

Right, so what does that mean?‑‑‑Well, I only get paid for the hours that I work. Salary people, they get more money and more options. They're on a salary.

PN392

But what hours do you work?‑‑‑I work 78 hours a week. I work from Sunday through till Thursday so I get Friday and Saturday off.

PN393

Right, and are you covered by some sort of industrial instrument do you know?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN394

Are you covered by any industrial instrument? Do you have an agreement that covers you, do you know?‑‑‑An industrial agreement? Well, only the award.

PN395

You're paid under the award are you?‑‑‑Yes, I'm paid by the award.

PN396

So that Woolworths doesn't have an agreement for you as a meat manager?‑‑‑No.

PN397

All right. Thank you.

PN398

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE [12.56 PM]

PN399

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Deputy President.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER RXN MR SCAIFE

PN400

Mr Carter, just in relation to the last question that Deputy President Bull asked you when you said you were covered by the award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN401

What do you understand the award to be?‑‑‑Well, I understand the award to be the terms of the agreement that was still hammered out I think back in 2012 and it's been amended up then - since then, that award.

PN402

And would that be the award with Woolworths specifically, and it's an agreement with Woolworths?‑‑‑It's the standard award with - yes, yes, it's designed through - it runs through with Woolworths. I think that same award runs through every Woolworths store in Australia.

PN403

So it's a national enterprise agreement with Woolworths, is that right?‑‑‑I suppose. I mean I've just always viewed it as the award.

PN404

Yes, okay, no further questions, Deputy President.

PN405

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Perhaps a follow up question. Mr Carter, it's Deputy President Kovacic here?‑‑‑Hi, how are you going?

PN406

What do you understand the terms or the agreement or the instrument that applies to you; what sort of conditions does it provide in addition to the normal wage rate and, you know, leave conditions? So does it provide anything more specific than that?‑‑‑Sick pay, holiday pay. If there's, you know, disagreements with management, how things will work out. Dress standard. Basically the terms that we work under and that's - I think it's law and we have to - and Woolworths have to keep to that and they can't sort of like drop below those conditions. I think that's about right.

PN407

Does it provide any special conditions to you for living in Carnarvon?‑‑‑Can you repeat that? You sort of faded out. Hello?

PN408

Does it provide any specific, special conditions to you because you live in Carnarvon?‑‑‑Not because I live in Carnarvon but it does give me like area allowance because I live like above the 26th parallel and all the rest of it. That's where that bit comes in.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER RXN MR SCAIFE

PN409

And what's that worth to you?‑‑‑Off the top of my head I couldn't actually say. It's a percentage so it's all part of my overall wages. It's really hard to tell because I don't get a pay slip (indistinct) and at the moment the computer system is being upgraded so I can't really see what it is. But it is like leave loading and all that kind of thing.

PN410

All right. Thank you very much for your time today, Mr Carter. You're now excused and you're free to go. We'll just hang up the phone at this end.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.59 PM]

PN411

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Deputy President, that might be an appropriate time to adjourn for lunch?

PN412

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I think so. We'll resume - - -

PN413

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Sorry, let me just go before you.

PN414

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Sorry.

PN415

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: When you return would you be able to find out what agreement, if that's what it is, Mr Carter is covered by?

PN416

MR SCAIFE: Yes, if I could take you to our court book to tab 15. We did write to the Commission on 4 April to provide these details.

PN417

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: All right.

PN418

MR SCAIFE: We made enquiries for all the witnesses but - - -

PN419

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Yes, sorry, it's my fault. You're right.

PN420

MR SCAIFE: Yes, so that should answer your questions there.

PN421

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Yes. Thank you. All right, well do you know what it - does it have a - - -

PN422

MR SCAIFE: Each of those agreements include location allowances of some form and I intend to step the Full Bench through those clauses in submissions.

*** DAVID JOHN CARTER RXN MR SCAIFE

PN423

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: So when the Deputy President - sorry, the question asked by Deputy President Kovacic, the $22 an hour, does that include the location allowance that Mr Carter receives?

PN424

MR SCAIFE: That's unclear. It seemed to be from what he said that he doesn't know how to break down the location allowance, but perhaps if we can make those enquiries from Mr Carter, Deputy President, and come back to you?

PN425

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Because normally it's weekly amounts anyway.

PN426

MR SCAIFE: Yes.

PN427

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: All right. Thank you. We'll resume at 2 o'clock.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.01 PM]

RESUMED [2.02 PM]

PN428

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I might just return to housekeeping. We are able to accommodate Mr Parker at 5 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, so no need to re-organise that one. So that's all hunky dory?

PN429

MS KNIGHT: That's great. I did actually manage to talk with him, and he can move to 2 pm tomorrow if that would be more convenient.

PN430

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Like shifting sands through the hour glass. I think the intention is Ms Simons is this afternoon, is she not?

PN431

MR SCAIFE: Ms Nolan and Ms Simons and, I think, Mr Lenton as well this afternoon.

PN432

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes. So if we can – so 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon works or is it ‑ ‑ ‑

PN433

MR SCAIFE: Yes, it seems as though ‑ ‑ ‑

PN434

MS KNIGHT: It does work for us unless there are any other responses to that.

PN435

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Any objections to that?

PN436

MR IZZO: From our perspective, your Honour, it makes sense because there might be an opportunity to move into actual submissions possibly tomorrow afternoon after that. So if that's the case we'd be supportive of that.

PN437

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll just put a caveat around that in the sense that I'm trying to accommodate 5 o'clock. We've re-arranged times to perhaps take advantage of what might have been a lull, but we'll be able to clarify that. But if circumstances permit, we can start submissions tomorrow afternoon. I'm more than happy to accommodate that, if that's the case. And in terms of Ms Rankin at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, that's okay as well.

PN438

MS KNIGHT: Thank you.

PN439

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: All right.

PN440

MR SCAIFE: We are also going to see, depending on the Full Bench's availability, whether or not we can – it seems as though we won't get to Ms Cheng this afternoon, and Ms Churchill is currently scheduled for Thursday. We're going to see if we can move Ms Cheng and Ms Churchill to till tomorrow morning after Ms Rankin. Is that acceptable to the Full Bench?

PN441

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

PN442

MR SCAIFE: Yes.

PN443

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

PN444

MR SCAIFE: We'll endeavour to make - we've left messages and we will continue doing so overnight, Deputy President.

PN445

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: It's a bit like a game of chess, isn't it?

PN446

MR SCAIFE: Yes.

PN447

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes. Thank you, Mr Scaife. So, Ms Nolan, now?

PN448

MR SCAIFE: Yes. Yes, I would like to call Gillian Nolan to give evidence.

PN449

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN450

MS NOLAN: Gillian Nolan, (address supplied).

<GILLIAN NOLAN, AFFIRMED [2.06 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE [2.07 PM]

PN451

MR SCAIFE: Ms Nolan, this is Mr Scaife, a lawyer for the SDA. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can. Should I put you on speaker phone?

PN452

Best if you don't, Ms Nolan, just so that we can hear you clearly on this end?‑‑‑Okay. No worries.

PN453

Ms Nolan, have you given a witness statement in support of the SDA's claim for district allowances?‑‑‑Yes.

PN454

Do you have a copy of your witness statement in front of you?‑‑‑I do.

PN455

Is that witness statement four pages and consisting of 39 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN456

Is the copy of the witness statement that you have signed and dated?‑‑‑Yes.

PN457

Is it dated 13 February 2018?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN458

Is that your signature at the bottom of the fourth page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN459

Is the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN460

I tender that witness statement, Deputy President.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XN MR SCAIFE

PN461

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Ms Gillian Nolan, comprising four pages, 39 paragraphs, which is dated 13 February 2018, exhibit 4.

EXHIBIT #4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GILLIAN NOLAN DATED 13/02/2018

PN462

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Deputy President. Ms Nolan, you're just now going to be asked some questions?‑‑‑Okay.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [2.08 PM]

PN463

MS BHATT: Ms Nolan, good afternoon. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN464

Ms Nolan, my name is Ms Bhatt. I appear in these proceedings on behalf of the Australian Industry Group, which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim, and I have just a small number of questions for you. Ms Nolan, I understand that you live in Karratha; is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN465

When did you move there?‑‑‑1998.

PN466

And you lived there ever since?‑‑‑Yes.

PN467

I understand that your husband is employed by Rio Tinto; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN468

What is he employed to do? What's his job?‑‑‑He is a fitter and turner.

PN469

How long as he been employed by Rio Tinto?‑‑‑Ten years. Approximately 10 years.

PN470

What was he doing before he was employed by Rio Tinto?‑‑‑He was a – he worked for the contractors that contracted to Rio.

PN471

So he was still doing work associated with Rio Tinto, but through a contracting company, a fuel contractor?‑‑‑Yes, just before he was employed by Rio.

PN472

Ms Nolan, do you know what your husband's annual salary is?‑‑‑Not really.

PN473

You don't have any idea?‑‑‑I think it's around 120,000 but I'm not 100 per cent sure.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MS BHATT

PN474

That's okay. Ms Nolan, is your husband's employment with Rio Tinto the reason that you live in Karratha?‑‑‑No.

PN475

Is it the reason that you moved to Karratha in 1998?‑‑‑The reason we moved to Karratha in 1998 was because we were in a rut in Victoria, and he could get employment here rather than down there.

PN476

So that caused you to move?‑‑‑Yes.

PN477

Ms Nolan, can I ask you to have a look at paragraph 7 of your witness statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN478

It says:

PN479

We pay approximately $500 per month towards our mobile phone and internet bills.

PN480

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN481

Just so I'm clear, when you refer to "we" at the start of that paragraph, that's a reference to yourself and your husband, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN482

Ms Nolan, I take it that you have a mobile phone?‑‑‑Yes.

PN483

Do you know who your network provider is, so are you connected with Telstra or with Vodafone or ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Telstra.

PN484

Do you know how much you pay for your phone each month?‑‑‑I think because we've paid them off, it used to be about $60 each and ‑ ‑ ‑

PN485

When you say ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Well, we bought them on a plan.

PN486

When you say $60 each, do you mean $60 for yourself and $60 for your husband?‑‑‑Yes.

PN487

Do you know how much you pay for your internet bill each month?‑‑‑I think it's around 59.95.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MS BHATT

PN488

Do you know who provides your internet?‑‑‑No, because I ‑ ‑ ‑

PN489

Is it Telstra or is it someone else?‑‑‑I think it's Telstra.

PN490

Ms Nolan, I take it that you're aware that your provider, in this case it's Telstra, or assume it's Telstra ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN491

‑ ‑ ‑offer different monthly plans for mobile phones and internet that cost varying amounts? Do you understand that to be the case?‑‑‑Yes.

PN492

Okay. Do you know if the plans that you're on are the cheapest plans available?‑‑‑I'm not sure. When you talk to them they always confuse you.

PN493

I think I can relate to that. Can I ask you to have a look at paragraph 8 of your witness statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN494

There you say:

PN495

From my experience talking to friends most of the big employers in Karratha offer an air conditioning allowance for their employees.

PN496

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN497

Ms Nolan, who are the big employers that you're referring to? Can you tell me their names?‑‑‑I know Rio, I know Dampier Salt, I know management at Woollies, and BHP.

PN498

I just want to be sure that I've understood this paragraph of your evidence properly. So you've talked to some friends, and is it the case that those friends are receiving an air conditioning allowance or that other people that your friends know are receiving the allowance?‑‑‑No, my friends.

PN499

Can I ask you then to have a look at paragraph 11 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN500

Which says:

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MS BHATT

PN501

I know that you can get groceries cheaper in the city at markets than what I pay in Karratha.

PN502

And then you give an example about the price of potatoes, and at paragraph 12 you make some reference to the price of meat. Ms Nolan, that reference to markets in the city, what do you mean by that?‑‑‑Well, like the potato man.

PN503

You might have to explain to me what that means?‑‑‑You know, the Spudshed. That type of thing.

PN504

All right. So what you're not talking about is a large supermarket, for example?‑‑‑I do know that prices are different in the supermarket arena in different areas.

PN505

Then if I can take you to paragraph 15 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN506

Which says:

PN507

At my store we once had to send milk back to Perth because the truck had driven up at the wrong temperature and the milk went off.

PN508

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN509

I just want to be sure that I've understood this correctly. So is it the case that the milk comes up in a refrigerated truck, and on that occasion, for whatever reason, the temperature inside the truck was too high which caused the milk to go off?‑‑‑Yes, the temperature was incorrect. Yes. So they couldn't accept it at the back dock.

PN510

Thank you. Ms Nolan, I don't have any further questions for you, but just wait on the line?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [2.16 PM]

PN511

MR IZZO: Hi, Ns Nolan. My name is Luis Izzo. I've also just got a few questions. Are you able to hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MR IZZO

PN512

You were asked some questions by Ms Bhatt in relation to when you moved up to Karratha, and I understand that effectively your husband's work seems to be the driving factor behind the move?‑‑‑Yes.

PN513

Do I take it that your husband is still the primary bread winner, for want of a better phrase, in terms of bringing in more income for the family unit; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN514

Have you or your husband been looking to move out of Karratha of late?‑‑‑We've thought about it.

PN515

But you haven't taken steps to relocate at this stage?‑‑‑No.

PN516

If you do relocate will that be likely because your husband obtains employment elsewhere that then you may look to move with him to that alternate location?‑‑‑No, we are near retirement age, so it would be a retirement move if we move.

PN517

Right. So you might retire in a different location?‑‑‑Yes, only because we couldn't afford to live here on a pension.

PN518

Can I just ask you – if I could ask you in relation to some of the evidence you've given about the medical facilities. You talk about at Karratha – I think you talk about the fact that it doesn't presently have an MRI machine, but you understand they might be getting one in the future. Is that as part of, what I understand to be, an upgrade of the health facilities in Karratha? Is that currently underway?‑‑‑Royalties for Regions are building a new health campus in Karratha.

PN519

Do you know much about what that new health campus is going to provide in terms of new services or new equipment?‑‑‑No.

PN520

So there is – what's your understanding of the current stage of development? Is it in construction right now, is it?‑‑‑It's near completion, I think, by the newspaper articles. It's not that far away.

PN521

What, it's got hospital beds, and a suite of different services, I take it, that they're going to introduce?‑‑‑Well, as far as I know, yes.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MR IZZO

PN522

Thank you. In relation to electricity costs, I think you mentioned that there's an allowance that your husband receives from Rio Tinto, and that - if you just bear with me. I thought I had read, but you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that the allowance usually covers your electricity costs but sometimes you go over; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, we get so much for the summer and then the usage allowance drops down during the winter months.

PN523

So you're sometimes not paying for electricity because it's covered by the allowance, but sometimes you go over. When you say you go over that's when you have to pay out of your own other money to pay for the electricity; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN524

You talk about taxi fares in Karratha being quite expensive. Are you aware of the actual taxi rates in Karratha; the flag call or the kilometre rate?‑‑‑No.

PN525

If I said to you that the flag call was $4.20, would that surprise you?‑‑‑I would say that would be low.

PN526

Well, I should actually clarify that. When I say $4.20, I mean, the usual day rate, that is, the flag call for the standard day time tariff, $4.20?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN527

So you're not necessarily convinced that's right though; is that right?‑‑‑Not necessarily, no.

PN528

Right. And the kilometre rate, if I was to say to you that it was about $2.30 in that same period of time, does that ring a bell, or you're not sure?‑‑‑No, it doesn't ring a bell at all.

PN529

Do you know what the actual flag call or kilometre rates are for Karratha?‑‑‑No. But I can tell you that to go from A to B in Karratha you have to go through C and D to get there.

PN530

Sure. Do you know what the taxi rates are in Perth?‑‑‑No idea. I've only ever used one once in Perth.

PN531

Sure. So you wouldn't know whether the flag call, for instance, in Perth was the same as it is in Karratha?‑‑‑No.

PN532

Just bear with me one moment. I have no further questions. Thank you, Ms Nolan.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MR IZZO

PN533

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Any further questions from any of the employer reps here in Sydney? Mr Tindley in Melbourne, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TINDLEY [2.23 PM]

PN534

MR TINDLEY: Yes. Thank you, your Honour. Ms Nolan, my name is Nick Tindley. I'm appearing on behalf of the Australian Retailers Association and Master Grocers Australia. I have a small number of questions ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I missed your name.

PN535

Nick Tindley?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

PN536

Thanks, Ms Nolan. Just a couple of questions. So you were asked about exceeding, what I will call the, Rio Tinto allowance in terms of electricity. Am I correct that that's because the amount of the allowance diminishes in winter months?‑‑‑Yes.

PN537

It's not because you're rushing to turn on the heaters in winter months because it's gotten cold?‑‑‑No.

PN538

Thank you. So would you use a heater at all in Karratha?‑‑‑No.

PN539

No. Mr Izzo asked you about the medical facilities in Karratha. I know that paragraph 29 of your statement you say that you know several pregnant ladies who have asked to their baby in Karratha but weren't able to. Are you aware of any improvements in that area in recent years?‑‑‑Yes.

PN540

So you'd be aware that in 2010 estimates were that 35 per cent of women in Karratha were unable to give birth in Karratha due to complications, but that has now reduced to approximately 15 per cent?‑‑‑I am aware there's been a change, yes.

PN541

Thank you. There's also been a number of other changes in Karratha, hasn't there? The city has progressed significantly; would that be a fair comment?‑‑‑As far as infrastructure, yes.

PN542

So there's a Karratha Leisureplex that was constructed and opened in 2013 that's brought another activity to the town or to the city?‑‑‑But it's only replaced what we have already had.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN XXN MR TINDLEY

PN543

It's substantially improved and expanded, isn't it?‑‑‑It's – yes.

PN544

There's also a redevelopment within, what we'll call, the centre of Karratha, including a project called The Quarter. Were you aware of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN545

That's a significant improvement in the infrastructure in Karratha, and the services available; is that correct?‑‑‑It's an eyesore. Yes.

PN546

Sorry?‑‑‑It's an eyesore.

PN547

The question was, do you agree that that's extended or expanded the services and activities available within Karratha?‑‑‑It's replaced what we've already had, and overtaken other retail opportunities for small businessmen, yes.

PN548

Is this the same answer as with the Leisureplex in which it has replaced but has also expanded; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN549

Thank you. I have nothing further.

PN550

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE [2.26 PM]

PN551

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Deputy President. Ms Nolan, I just have two questions for you in re-examination. I didn't imagine I'd ever have to ask you this question in front of ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Sorry, you're fading.

PN552

‑ ‑ ‑ the Commission. Ms Nolan, my question to you is could you explain a little bit more – you talked earlier about prices at a place called Spudshed. Could you explain a little bit more about what the Spudshed is?‑‑‑Well, it's a vegetable market in Perth, and he has quite a few outlets, and he's nowhere near as big as the major retailers that we have, and his prices are significantly cheaper than what we can get our produce for.

PN553

What are the size of the outlets?‑‑‑As far as square feet or ‑ ‑ ‑

PN554

In terms of, say, relative to a supermarket?‑‑‑I would say about – I would say a bit smaller than the supermarkets.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN RXN MR SCAIFE

PN555

Yes. You answered a question earlier about to the extent that you wouldn't retire in Karratha, and you mentioned that you couldn't afford to live in Karratha on a pension. Are there any other reasons why you wouldn't retire in Karratha?‑‑‑Yes, there is. I would love to retire in Karratha if we could afford it, but in the past year or so the crime that just in my circle of friends and what you hear on social media, has increased dramatically. In regard to that, in my street alone there's been four break and enters just this year, and where I work the amount of altercations between people in the shopping centre has increased, and it's not a safe place to stay at, at the moment. You have to virtually lock yourself in ‑ ‑ ‑

PN556

Ms, Nolan, when you ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑ ‑ ‑ ‑ from society.

PN557

Sorry, Ms Nolan. When you said that you couldn't afford to retire there on a pension, what were you referring to? What sort of costs were you referring to?‑‑‑Well, I'm one of the lucky ones that will pay our house off, but if you weren't – if you had a mortgage or you paid rent here you wouldn't be able to afford to live here, and the high costs of your electricity, by the time you pay your registration on your cars, all that sort of stuff all adds up to not being able to afford it.

PN558

Thank you, Ms Nolan.

PN559

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you, Ms Nolan. It's the Deputy President Kovacic here. That's the end of your evidence. You're now excused and you're free to go, so we'll just hang up the phone. Thank you for your evidence this afternoon?‑‑‑Thank you very much.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.59 PM]

PN560

MR SCAIFE: I understand - I've just been informed by the employer parties here in Sydney that Ms Simons may not be required for cross-examination, but I'm not sure if that's the case for Mr Tindley.

PN561

MR TINDLEY: Sorry, Mr Scaife, I can't quite hear you?

PN562

MR SCAIFE: Sorry, we've just been informed that Ms Simons, who was next on our list, may not be required for cross-examination from the parties here in Sydney. Do you require Ms Simons?

PN563

MR TINDLEY: No.

*** GILLIAN NOLAN RXN MR SCAIFE

PN564

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Shall we deal with tendering her witness statement?

PN565

MR SCAIFE: Yes. So this is at tab 11 of our Court book, Deputy President, and this is a witness statement running to four pages, 34 paragraphs. If I could tender that witness statement, please?

PN566

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Shania Simons, which is dated 3 April 2018, as exhibit 5.

EXHIBIT #5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SHANIA SIMONS DATED 03/04/2018

PN567

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Deputy President. I will leave that. That's our evidence for today pending further inquiries, and then it will be Ms Knight.

PN568

MS KNIGHT: I'll just attempt to contact Mark Lenton and see if he can come on earlier if that's ‑ ‑ ‑

PN569

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We might just take a five minute adjournment while you do that, if that's okay, Ms Knight?

PN570

MS KNIGHT: Appreciate it. Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.31 PM]

RESUMED [2.39 PM]

PN571

MS KNIGHT: The ASU would like to call Mr Mark Lenton.

PN572

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?

PN573

MR LENTON: My name is Mark Raymond Lenton, (address supplied).

<MARK RAYMOND LENTON, AFFIRMED [2.40 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS KNIGHT [2.41 PM]

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XN MS KNIGHT

PN574

MS KNIGHT: Good afternoon, Mark. It's Joanne Knight here, appearing as national industrial officer for the Australian Services Union. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you, Joanne.

PN575

Thank you, Mark. Mark, did you give a statement in support of the ASU district allowances matter?‑‑‑Yes, I did, and I have it before me.

PN576

You have a copy to hand. Thank you. Is that statement you have to hand two pages long?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN577

And is that statement 15 paragraphs in content?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct also.

PN578

If I can take you to page 2 Mark?‑‑‑Yes.

PN579

Is that statement signed and dated?‑‑‑It is and it's dated the 23rd of the 2nd, 2018.

PN580

Thank you very much, Mark. Is this statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN581

I tender the statement of Mark Lenton.

PN582

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the statement of Mr Mark Lenton, which comprises 15 paragraphs, two pages, and is dated 23 February 2018, exhibit 6.

EXHIBIT #6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MARK RAYMOND LENTON DATED 23/02/2018

PN583

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [2.42 PM]

PN584

MR IZZO: Hi, Mr Lenton. My name is Luis Izzo. I'm just going to ask you a few questions about your statement, if that's okay?‑‑‑That'd be fine.

PN585

Thank you. I notice that you've lived in Broken Hill for the past 57 years. Is that, if I can ask this in the most respectful way, is that the duration of your whole life or part of it?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XXN MR IZZO

PN586

It is?‑‑‑It's the whole life. Whole 57 years, yes.

PN587

How did you start out in the workforce? When did you start working?‑‑‑I completed year 12 at high school, and then went straight to the mines. I was diamond drilling for eight years underground, and then from there I moved to the Broken Hill City Council. So, I got employment there as a labourer, and then moved on to a – there was an electrical linesman's job that come up and I took that, and I completed the course over a four year course. I had about five years' experience out in the field, went to the management and asked if I could do an adult apprenticeship for electrical technician, which they accepted, and I completed that in a four year course through TAFE, and then completed another five years as a technician. Then moved on to electrical inspecting for the Broken Hill region, and now I'm an electrical designer for Essential Energy.

PN588

Thank you. That was very thorough. Thank you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN589

So, I mean, you obviously had a variety of jobs that you've just mentioned through the course of your career, and you're now at Essential Energy as you mentioned. Did you ever look for employment in other locations as opposed to staying in Broken Hill?‑‑‑No, I've sort of – with those jobs it was all in the Broken Hill City Council, so it was – I've got 33 years' service with Essential Energy. We've had different names during that timeframe, but because it just continued on I've had 33 continuous years, so – and during my timeframe, as in looking for work, I sort of landed a job straight out of school and the path that I took just opened doors that when I wanted to leave sort of thing, so, yes, I was very lucky as in work.

PN590

So there was just no desire to leave essentially; is that the case?‑‑‑Yes, well, straight from school going to a mining position, the money was too good, so I followed that path just to follow the money, but then eight years down the track I decided that working underground wasn't for me. I needed to get out. And just so happened there was a position at the Broken Hill City Council and I applied for it and I got that job straight away. So during my life going for positions for work I've found it lucky that every time I've applied I've actually got the position, so no need to look elsewhere. The jobs were there so I stayed where I was.

PN591

Do I take it there's no intention to move on from Broken Hill?‑‑‑I've been 57 years and 37 years' service for the company. Probably fairly silly to move on to another area unless, yes, I was told to move on. But, at the moment, I'm going to probably see the Essential Energy through – with my job.

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XXN MR IZZO

PN592

Sure. So can I take it then broadly speaking, I mean, you're content where you are. There hasn't been a driving need to – you're essentially content with both the career path that came up. The opportunities that came up, and your other life outside of that, you were sufficiently content to not want to leave and change things up?‑‑‑Yes. Well, that's probably based on what - the living style as in just getting to work to and from, but as an – where I'm coming from with the statement, as a financial thing, I think it's sort of bias, as in we sort of have a dismissal pocket sort of thrown at me, but, yes, I just seem to think it's a bit unfair because I'm sort of located in a remote area that I've sort of got to cover the costs of living in that area, and that's my decision to live in that area, so I just can't see why we should be penalised.

PN593

Sure. I suppose when we talk about – so I appreciate that. You're saying the cost is high. Can I just ask a few questions about that. Do you own or rent the property that you live in?‑‑‑I own the property at the moment, yes.

PN594

Has that got a mortgage on it?‑‑‑No, it hasn't.

PN595

So I take it you've paid off the mortgage, have you?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN596

When did you buy the property?‑‑‑When I was married. Probably 35 years ago.

PN597

Right. Dare I ask how much it was 35 years ago?‑‑‑Yes. You'd be astounded. It's probably $55,000 I paid for the house.

PN598

Sure. You talk about phone costs, telephone costs. Do you know what your monthly mobile phone bill is?‑‑‑Probably not off hand. In my statement I sort of said we've sort of – we've only got Telstra as a network to go back to. The reason being because there's no other network in our area. I've come across breaking down in a car, just heading towards Mildura and we didn't have any network, so we couldn't call anyone, so we were relying on people to drive past and pass the messages on. So as in we're sort of restricted to which provider we can go to, and the only provider we can go to basically there is Telstra.

PN599

Telstra?‑‑‑So, our hands are tied sort of thing. But to answer your question, no, I don't have a rough idea what it would cost.

PN600

That's fine. What about internet? Is that through Telstra as well?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct. Everything through Telstra. We find if you bundle everything up it's a bit of a bartering tool and it gets you a bit of a discount now and again.

PN601

I take it, do you know what your internet cost is?‑‑‑Not off hand. I'd ‑ ‑ ‑

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XXN MR IZZO

PN602

Sure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN603

That's all right. I take it – have you got the national broadband network in Broken Hill?‑‑‑No, not as yet.

PN604

But is it on its way?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN605

Do you know when that's due to land so to speak?‑‑‑I think roughly that could be 12 months away, I think, in Broken Hill.

PN606

Sure. Okay. Sorry, just bear with me a moment, Mr Lenton?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN607

I take it you're covered by the Essential Energy Far West Enterprise Agreement. That's what you've put in your statement; yes?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN608

Do you know whether there is any remote working allowance that is paid to you under that instrument, or are you on a salary such that you don't get any extra allowance?‑‑‑Well, there's a bit of an issue there, because Essential Energy do have a remote area allowance, but Broken Hill doesn't get it. They have taken upon a graph that was taken in 2011 by the Adelaide University which showed the population of Broken Hill was over 80,000, so Essential Energy has said anything that was 80,000 in a remote area doesn't get any allowance at all. So we have towns 80 kays away from us that are getting a remote area allowance but we don't get anything. And then if you have a look at the map in New South Wales where the people from Essential Energy are getting this allowance, probably the most remote town in that map would be Broken Hill but we don't get it. And there was a census taken last year where our population has dropped because everyone seems to be leaving to the city, so it's under 80,000 now, sitting at 77,860. So once the Adelaide University completes their survey and sends it through, I've been told, at the start of this year where hopefully we may get it, but there's no certainty with that either. Yes, so at the moment, to answer your question people in Broken Hill, no, they don't get a remote area allowance at all.

PN609

Sure. I envisage if you stay with Essential Energy you will continue to be subject to the enterprise agreement for the foreseeable future, that is, even if it's not this enterprise agreement, it'll be the next iteration. As far as you can tell, the instrument governing your employment from now probably to a time it will be an EA; is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct. Yes.

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XXN MR IZZO

PN610

Yes. That's all the questions I had for you, Mr Lenton. We'll just see if anyone else has any questions. Thank you?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN611

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Do any of the other employer representatives in Sydney have any questions? Mr Tindley in Melbourne?

PN612

MR TINDLEY: No thanks.

PN613

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife, any questions in reply?

PN614

MR IZZO: Sir, I apologise, I did have one last question. I apologise. Thank you. Sorry, Mr Lenton, there's one thing I forgot to ask you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN615

Your commute to work, the commute to work, how long does it usually take to get to your place of work in Broken Hill?‑‑‑Probably 15 minutes roughly.

PN616

Sure. You talk in your statement about the fact that sometimes you may be required to drive eight hours to a different work site. Am I correct in assuming that if you're required to go to a different work site that's quite a distance away like that, there's some form of payment that you're entitled to under the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes. To give you an update, I'm at Dubbo at the moment, so I've travelled from Broken Hill to Dubbo yesterday, and I started at – my work started at 7.30 in the morning and I was at Broken Hill around about 8.30. And I had to do other stuff – other work commitments too, and I reached Dubbo last night at 7 o'clock. Like, this is just an example of – and this is for a training course which is Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, so to travel from Monday to Friday it will take me all day to get there as well, plus there's additional work to be done as well. And, yes, I do get payment for coming away, but the other thing is my wife is left home alone sort of thing, and there's other issues at home that we need to tend to, and while I'm here there's none of that gets done at all. So – yes, I do get paid, but, yes – and I do travel fair distances. Some work sites could take me, like I said in my statement, eight hours. So, yes, it could take me just a full day just to get to a work site.

PN617

The payment, is that under some kind of kilometre reimbursement or is there also ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑No.

PN618

‑ ‑ ‑a component for your time?‑‑‑No, it's – well, there's a timeframe that I work. Say, I work from 7.30 to 4 o'clock, so if there's additional hours after that it is overtime, but ‑ ‑ ‑

PN619

But you'll be paid for that time as work time?‑‑‑Yes. That is correct. I do get paid for that.

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON XXN MR IZZO

PN620

Okay?‑‑‑And there is a living away allowance as well, so I do get paid to go over, yes. It's just the hours. You've got to be driving all the time, as in, for an example, like I said, as in yesterday it was about nine – 10 hours.

PN621

Thank you, Mr Lenton?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN622

DEPUTY PRESIDENT BULL: Mr Lenton, Deputy President Bull speaking?‑‑‑Yes.

PN623

You maybe some while away from retiring, but when you do retire, are you remaining in Broken Hill?‑‑‑That's a good question. I would love to. That's where all my friends are. I've sort of – from feedback from other people when they've moved away and gone to other towns in bigger cities they find it hard to have friends and go out at night-time on their own. They're sort of stuck by themselves sort of thing. And after a short timeframe they end up coming back home because that's where all their friends are. That's where they've grown up and that's where they're most comfortable, so, yes, I sort of haven't really – I have thought about it. I wouldn't want to go away. I'm quite happy where I am, but, yes, I'm not too sure at this stage.

PN624

Yes. Is the cost of living an issue to consider when you retire, where you live?‑‑‑Yes, it is. And – yes, just in some of my statements I've got twin girls at the moment and they're 22 years old and they're going through university, and it's just the additional costings at the moment with them being away, travelling costs, living costs, and all the (indistinct) costs that come with it. It's fairly hard on just to keep us going and rather than trying to keep the – like, the other part of the family going as well.

PN625

Thank you.

PN626

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you very much, Mr Lenton. It's Deputy President here – Ms Knight, did you have any questions, sorry?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS KNIGHT [2.57 PM]

PN627

MS KNIGHT: Mr Lenton, it's Joanne Knight again?‑‑‑Yes, Joanne.

PN628

I just have a couple of questions to take you to?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK RAYMOND LENTON RXN MS KNIGHT

PN629

Mr Lenton, you said during the examination that you're currently in Dubbo for training purposes; is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.

PN630

Is this course a requirement of your job?‑‑‑It is, yes. There's other (indistinct) here from Orange and around there who are paid as well.

PN631

As far as you're aware is Dubbo the only location where you could do the course?‑‑‑It is. Yes, well, for everyone to travel to Broken Hill the cost factor for them to get them to, like, a remote area as in petrol, accommodation, to get everyone to there to the furthest part of New South Wales, yes, you wouldn't look at it. Whereas Dubbo is more central.

PN632

Thank you, Mr Lenton.

PN633

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you, Mr Lenton. You are now excused and free to go. So we'll just hang up the phone. Thank you for your evidence this afternoon?‑‑‑Thank you very much.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.58 PM]

PN634

MR SCAIFE: Deputy President, I can advise that we've managed to make contact with Ms Cheng, and she is available now if the Full Bench has time to hear her evidence.

PN635

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes.

PN636

MR SCAIFE: In that case I call Foon Meng Cheng to give evidence. Her witness statement is at tab 8 of our Court book.

PN637

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN638

MS CHENG: Foon Meng Cheng, (address supplied).

<FOON MENG CHENG, AFFIRMED [3.00 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SCAIFE [3.00 PM]

PN639

MR SCAIFE: Thank you, Ms Cheng. It's David Scaife, the lawyer for the SDA here. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XN MS SCAIFE

PN640

Ms Cheng, did you give a witness statement supporting the SDA's claim for a district allowance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN641

Do you have a copy of that witness statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN642

Is that witness statement four pages and 43 paragraphs long?‑‑‑Yes.

PN643

On the fourth page is the copy that you have signed and dated, 6 April 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN644

Is that your signature at the bottom of the fourth page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN645

Is the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN646

I tender that statement.

PN647

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I'll mark the witness statement of Ms Foon Meng Cheng, comprising four pages and 43 paragraphs, and dated 6 April 2018, exhibit 7.

EXHIBIT #7 WITNESS STATEMENT OF FOON MENG CHENG DATED 06/04/2018

PN648

MR SCAIFE: Ms Cheng, just two questions from me. Do you know if you currently receive an allowance from your employer for working in South Hedland?‑‑‑Yes.

PN649

How much is that allowance?‑‑‑That allowance will be $23.45 per week.

PN650

What would be the effect on you of losing that allowance?‑‑‑First, I live with my retired husband. I'm the only one who works, so we are very tight on – because that's the only income that I have in here. So if we lose that allowance, so we are very tight on the – we have to be very careful of the budgeting. Yes.

PN651

Thank you, Ms Cheng. You're now going to be asked some questions by some of the other parties in the room?‑‑‑Okay. Yes.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XN MS SCAIFE

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [3.03 PM]

PN652

MS BHATT: Ms Cheng, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN653

My name is Ms Bhatt. I appear in these proceedings on behalf of the Australian Industry Group ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN654

‑ ‑ ‑which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim, and I have just a few questions for you about your statement. Ms Cheng, can you turn to paragraph 8 of your statement for me, please?‑‑‑Eight, yes.

PN655

I'm just going to read that out. It says:

PN656

I go to Perth about three times a year and I can always tell that the groceries in Hedland are more expensive.

PN657

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN658

So, Ms Cheng, is it the case that when you've been to Perth you've noticed how much some grocery items cost, and then you've compared that to how much you think similar grocery items cost in Hedland?‑‑‑You mean, the difference or the – can you repeat your question, because I can't hear very clear what you are saying?

PN659

Of course I can. So is it the case that when you've been in Perth you've noticed how much grocery items cost and you've compared that to how much you think similar grocery items cost in Hedland?‑‑‑You mean, what the difference of Perth and Hedland, is it?

PN660

That's right. That's how you've come to that evidence in paragraph 8, isn't it?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN661

Yes?‑‑‑But the thing is because Hedland is expensive and maybe about a dollar expensive and the food is not fresh. Sometimes you can see – tell that it's (indistinct) and then I'm saying that, yes, the fruit is expensive and not fresh at all.

PN662

Ms Cheng, I understand that you're employed by Kmart, aren't you?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MS BHATT

PN663

Am I correct in understanding that Kmart is the biggest shop that sells clothes in Hedland?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN664

When you're rostered to work at Kmart do you know how many other people are rostered to work at the same time as you?‑‑‑Can you repeat the questions again? I can't hear properly.

PN665

When you're rostered to work at Kmart?‑‑‑I work in Kmart, yes.

PN666

Yes. Do you know how many other people are rostered to work at the same time as you?‑‑‑How many people – like, how many people who live in Hedland who work in Kmart, is it? Is that your question?

PN667

No. So I want you to think about when you're rostered to work at Kmart. So when you're working on the shop floor?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN668

And can you tell me how many other people are working with you at Kmart at the same time?‑‑‑At the same time. Maybe – say, about 10.

PN669

If you have a look at paragraph 38 of your witness statement?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN670

I'm reading the first sentence:

PN671

For clothes shopping we really only have Kmart except for a few small stores.

PN672

?‑‑‑Mm.

PN673

Do you see that?‑‑‑That is number ‑ ‑ ‑

PN674

Thirty-eight?‑‑‑Question eight, is it?

PN675

Thirty-eight?‑‑‑Question eight.

PN676

3-8?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. Yes, I got 38. Yes.

PN677

All right. So just have a look at the first sentence:

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MS BHATT

PN678

For clothes shopping we really only have Kmart except for a few small stores.

PN679

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN680

Do you see that now?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN681

When you say "a few small stores" are you able to give me a number? About roughly how many that might be?‑‑‑How many of, is it, you are saying?

PN682

That's right. So ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Is it shop – or how many ‑ ‑ ‑

PN683

You're referring to a few small stores in Hedland that sell clothes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN684

Do you know roughly how many there are?‑‑‑There's only Kmart. There's only Kmart. One Kmart of a clothing store. Unless you're going to Karratha and other places, but in Hedland there's only one Kmart, clothing shop. Yes.

PN685

So what are these other few small stores that you're referring to?‑‑‑Pardon? Can you repeat again?

PN686

I can. So I'm looking at paragraph 38, and I'm looking at the first sentence?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN687

You say – just let me read that out to you, Ms Cheng?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN688

The first sentence says:

PN689

For clothes shopping we really only have Kmart except for a few small stores.

PN690

?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN691

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I see that.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MS BHATT

PN692

How many small stores are there that sell clothes except for Kmart in Hedland?‑‑‑The clothes shop – because the business here is hard to deal with. I think when I'm having this statement at the time, that is maybe I – that is not even – only one in Kmart. The rest already have been closed. Yes, the only one is Kmart. Yes, hasn't got other – unless Ed Harrys is a men's shop. Ed Harrys is a men shop. That's it, we've got.

PN693

So you think there might be one, but you're not sure?‑‑‑Yes. I think there's Ed Harrys. There's a men shop. If you are saying that, like, Kmart; that we've got clothes, women's clothes, and that is Kmart has that.

PN694

Okay?‑‑‑Yes.

PN695

No further questions.

PN696

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Izzo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO [3.10 PM]

PN697

MR IZZO: Hi, Ms Cheng, my name is Luis Izzo. I've just got a few questions as well. Can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. Yes.

PN698

Great. I might just ask, did you end up getting sent by the SDA a document that we wanted to show to you? Have you seen that? A link to a Bureau of Meteorology document, have you seen that, that was sent through to you?‑‑‑Just one second. I just – yes, hold on a second. I'm just turning the page. The climate one, is it?

PN699

The climate – it talks about tropical cyclones?‑‑‑That's one, yes.

PN700

Have you got that?‑‑‑Yes. The climate – yes. Yes.

PN701

Just check that we're talking about the same document. Does this start off talking about tropical cyclones in Port Hedland?‑‑‑Yes.

PN702

It talks there about there being about one cyclone every two years. Do you see that? The second line:

PN703

On average ‑ ‑ ‑

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MR IZZO

PN704

?‑‑‑The second line.

PN705

‑ ‑ ‑this equates to about one every two years.

PN706

?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN707

So I just wanted to ask you, in your statement, you talk about there being about three cyclones each season. In terms of cyclones hitting Port Hedland, do you agree that perhaps the ones that would actually be near Port Hedland, the town, might be more like once every two years?‑‑‑There is a cyclone every year, but that it really hits on Hedland, and then that – like, usually when they start, the cyclone, they're just around Hedland. You know, sometimes maybe they turn into Karratha or some other way, but when they hit on Hedland they're really on – that means Hedland will be on red alert.

PN708

So you're not saying that all of them hit Hedland each year?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN709

There might be three in the season, but they don't necessarily all hit Hedland; is that right?‑‑‑Yes. I mean, I think that is, like, the cyclones – when the cyclones come, when they hit on Hedland there's red alert that is everything has to be shut. But when they come into around Hedland they just bring a lot of rain and flood everywhere. That is the point I want to say.

PN710

Sure?‑‑‑Mm.

PN711

But you don't say there's three cyclones that actually come through Port Hedland each year. You'd accept it would be less frequent than that?‑‑‑Actually that is – it depends on the cyclone, sir. But I think I've been seeing a few cyclones that get hit on Hedland, because I've been living here for a while; maybe about 30 years, so I've been seeing a few cyclones that really hit on Hedland. But usually – sometimes we are lucky that we don't get hit, but just pass by, but they still bring a lot of rain.

PN712

Lot of rain. Yes, okay?‑‑‑Yes, a lot of rain. Yes.

PN713

The next thing I just wanted to ask you is you say you moved to Hedland in 1987. You came from Singapore?‑‑‑Yes.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MR IZZO

PN714

Is that where you lived before moving to Australia? Is it that you were in Singapore permanently before then?‑‑‑Yes. I'm in Singapore and used to be. When – in 1987 then I come into Australia, yes. Yes, I ‑ ‑ ‑

PN715

Why did you come to Australia?‑‑‑Because my brother-in-law is here and my parents-in-law is here, so they say Australia is a good place, so we're coming over. Yes.

PN716

Right. Were they in Hedland too, or they were somewhere else?‑‑‑Now, they are in Perth. They're all in Perth now.

PN717

They're in Perth. So ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑But they are – at first they are living in Hedland, so they all moved down to Perth, but we like Hedland, so we're staying in Hedland, yes.

PN718

So they were in Hedland. You moved to Hedland. Your family moved down to Perth, but you like it in Hedlands so you've stayed there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN719

Can I ask you, did you have a job when you came over in 1987?‑‑‑1987? No. No, my husband hasn't got a job when he come to Hedland. Then he started to work in here.

PN720

Right. Your husband was your husband in Singapore; is that right?‑‑‑Yes. We have – we did – our whole family come from Singapore.

PN721

Okay?‑‑‑And then when – yes.

PN722

You talk about owning your house outright. Do you know how much you paid for the house?‑‑‑The house where we're living now?

PN723

Yes?‑‑‑This house, yes. At the time is about maybe 40,000, 45,000. There's the 2000 – the year of 2000.

PN724

You bought that in 2000, did you?‑‑‑Yes. I think 46,000, yes.

PN725

Right, okay?‑‑‑Yes.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MR IZZO

PN726

Do remember what the mortgage repayments were or not really?‑‑‑The mortgage? No.

PN727

You talk about the phone and internet costs. You talk about it being - on the second page of your document, you talk about $840 a year on phone and internet?‑‑‑Yes.

PN728

Do you know how much that – do you know what the breakdown is? How much of that is the phone?‑‑‑How much is for the phone? Actually I have no idea. Just pay off the thing – the whole thing that – and then we – sometimes we just pay the recharge. That's why we just roughly to – calculate the figure.

PN729

So you're not sure. I take it you're not sure about the internet either?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN730

Am I correct that – do you have any – sorry, I'll withdraw that. Do you intend to stay in Port Hedland?‑‑‑Am I planning to stay in Port Hedland, is it? You ask the question?

PN731

Yes, that was my question?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, we are planning to stay in Port Hedland. Yes.

PN732

So you haven't looked to move to Perth or Mandurah or anywhere further south; no?‑‑‑I'm not sure, but we might be moving when we really totally retire. We totally retire. Because now I'm still working. Only my husband retired so I'm not sure when we are retired and we're going down to Perth, yes.

PN733

Sure. Where the rest of your family is?‑‑‑Yes.

PN734

Sorry, if you just give me a moment, Ms Cheng?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN735

You talk about your husband, he was diagnosed with an eye condition in 2016?‑‑‑Yes.

PN736

I take it you then had some increased level of trips down to Perth because of that; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN737

So I take it there was some extra cost there. When he was diagnosed that when they were dealing with his eye condition you had extra expenses to travel down to Perth; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

*** FOON MENG CHENG XXN MR IZZO

PN738

But now it seems to have improved; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN739

So you mentioned that you're only going down to Perth once a year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN740

So do I take it that that period of 2015 to 2016 that was kind of quite exceptional? You had a high amount of costs at that time, but it's different to – it's higher than the costs you usually have for medical conditions the rest of the time you've been in Hedland?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN741

When you say "Mm-hm" I take it that's a yes? Okay. They're all the questions I had. Thank you very much for your time, Ms Cheng?‑‑‑All right. Thank you.

PN742

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Do any of the other employer representatives in Sydney have any questions? Mr Tindley in Melbourne, do you have any questions?

PN743

MR TINDLEY: No, thank you, your Honour.

PN744

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Mr Scaife, any ‑ ‑ ‑

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE [3.20 PM]

PN745

MR SCAIFE: Just briefly. Ms Cheng, it's Mr Scaife here for the SDA again. Can you hear me? Ms Cheng, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN746

Ms Cheng, it's David Scaife for the SDA here?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN747

I just have a couple of questions for you?‑‑‑Okay.

PN748

The first question is you were just asked a question about retiring and you said that you would think about retiring down to Perth?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN749

Can you explain why you would want to retire to Perth rather than to Hedlands?‑‑‑You asked me that is why I – when I'm retiring I want to go down to Perth, is it?

*** FOON MENG CHENG RXN MR SCAIFE

PN750

Yes?‑‑‑Is that your question? Yes. Because in Hedland it's so hot in here and then we thought we are retired, so could have a better life in Perth, and then because a lot of medication problems as well, medical problems as well, that we might be close by to the hospital and make our life a bit easier.

PN751

So that takes me to my next questions, Ms Cheng. You were just asked some questions about the period when you had to travel to Perth for your husband's eye condition?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN752

Your answer to one of the questions wasn't clear, Ms Cheng, so I just want to clarify it with you. The question that was put to you was whether the expenses you incurred during that time were unusual. Based on what you've just said, can I just – I think that question needs to be put to you again for clarification. Do you anticipate what sort of medical attention you would need in future? Ms Cheng?‑‑‑Hello, yes.

PN753

Yes. So you said that one of the reason that you would move to Perth is because you would want to be closer to the hospitals?‑‑‑Yes.

PN754

So the question is what reason would you have in the future for being closer to the hospitals?‑‑‑What is my – why I want to live close to the hospital? Do you ask this question?

PN755

Yes?‑‑‑Because, you know, Australia is so big that - the country is very big that if we are living close by – like, Hedlands we are living so far away. When you really want to go down to the hospital you need to fly down, and then you need to go to a hotel, get all right, and then it's so much of expenses and things. If you are really – when you retire, when we are getting older, so we live by - close to the hospital and then it makes things easier.

PN756

Have you ever had to travel to Perth, or your husband had to travel to Perth in the past for medical attention other than the period in 2015/2016?‑‑‑Your question is, do I travel with him, is it?

PN757

Have you had to travel to Perth for medical attention other than when you travelled to Perth in 2015/2016?‑‑‑Do I have to travel with him or what is your question again? I didn't get you.

PN758

That's okay, Ms Cheng. The question is you spoke before about traveling to Perth in 2015/2016 for your husband's eye problem; yes?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

*** FOON MENG CHENG RXN MR SCAIFE

PN759

My question is, are there any other times or any other reasons that you have had to travel to Perth for medical attention?‑‑‑No. No, I had only that time that we had to fly down to Perth, yes. Only that time.

PN760

And for your husband?‑‑‑Yes, for my husband.

PN761

Thank you, Ms Cheng.

PN762

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Ms Cheng, it's the Deputy President here. Thank you for your evidence this afternoon. You're now excused and you're free to go. So what we'll do we'll just hang up the phone here at this end. Thank you again?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.25 PM]

PN763

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: So that's the end of the witnesses for today?

PN764

MR SCAIFE: Yes, it would seem that way, Deputy President. We are still – I think the SDA now only has one witness left, Ms Churchill. Provided that we can address my friend's concerns overnight in relation to Ms Hughes-Gage's evidence and so we will continue to see if we can schedule Ms Churchill after Ms Rankin tomorrow morning, and that will bring our witnesses to an end.

PN765

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Then we've got Mr Parker at 2 pm?

PN766

MS KNIGHT: That's correct.

PN767

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Okay, great. So it's looks as though we might be able to start submissions tomorrow afternoon?

PN768

MR SCAIFE: Yes, that would be the position we would want to be in. We'd be prepared to.

PN769

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Just given that we are ahead of schedule at this stage, if I can describe it that way, do people think we will need Friday?

*** FOON MENG CHENG RXN MR SCAIFE

PN770

MR SCAIFE: I think, from our perspective, I intend to finish the SDA's submissions tomorrow, and then there may be a need for us to reply on Thursday, but I certainly wouldn't see – that would only take perhaps an hour, an hour and a half for the submissions, and then perhaps half an hour in reply, depending on what arises.

PN771

MS BHATT: I haven't had an opportunity to discuss this with any of the other employer representatives. From my part, I expect that our closing submissions would take roughly half an hour to 40 minutes. Nothing longer.

PN772

Can I raise one other issue?

PN773

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Sure.

PN774

MS BHATT: I might have misunderstood this, but based on the Deputy President's comments earlier, I understood that it may or may not be the case that tomorrow afternoon we can proceed to hear the unions' closing submissions on account of whether or not some alternative arrangements need to be made on the Bench's part. Perhaps I'm inappropriately seeking an indulgence here, but if I can just raise one issue. When the unions put their closing submissions, that will be the first time that the employers will hear the unions' response to the case that we have put in opposition. In some ways we're in a unique position in this review, because it has often been the case or generally been the case in this review that once the employers filed their material there's a third round, if you will, where the unions put their response in writing. We haven't heard that before.

PN775

From my part, at least, if the unions' submissions were made tomorrow, or at least part made, it would give us an opportunity to consider anything new they raised for the first time overnight and do my best to deal with it on my feet on Thursday. If that doesn't occur, and if I'm to deal with it on Thursday, after having heard it on Thursday morning for the first time, it may be that I'm left in the position where I need to seek, or make an application to seek a further opportunity to put something in writing. I'm sure everyone's just as keen as I am to see this case wrapped up. So I just put that to the extent that it might colour how the matter proceeds.

PN776

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We might just – I mean, I hear what you're saying, and one way perhaps considering if we get to union closing submissions tomorrow afternoon ‑ ‑ ‑

PN777

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN778

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: ‑ ‑ ‑you might have some sense if there's any new territory there.

PN779

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN780

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: To the extent that there are factors there which you may feel as though you need to reflect on them to respond, and we might consider how we might deal with it then.

PN781

MS BHATT: Thank you.

PN782

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Ms Knight, just a question for you. Do you think that if everything goes as might be planned for tomorrow that you might be in a position to do your submissions tomorrow afternoon, or alternatively on first thing Thursday morning?

PN783

MS KNIGHT: I believe I would be. I was just not clear about whether or not we're speaking to our written submission first, then hearing from the employers and then doing our submissions in reply, or if we're doing our written submissions and our submissions in reply tomorrow and Thursday.

PN784

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: I thought the batting order was the applicant unions would go first, then the employer respondents, and then unions in reply in terms of matters arising. So that would be the way I'd envisage it. I'm happy to be corrected.

PN785

MR SCAIFE: Our intention for the SDA is to essentially deal with the issues of controversy that have arisen out of the written submissions filed by the employer parties. I'm quite comfortable if they – you know, I expect to have that wrapped up tomorrow afternoon, you know, touch wood. Then they will have an opportunity, I think, overnight to consider those submissions and then a reply thereafter in relation to anything that they raise.

PN786

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes. Yes. So ‑ ‑ ‑

PN787

MR IZZO: For our part, we'd be very hopeful of finishing by Thursday, which means that Friday, whilst we might want to just keep it scheduled for now, I don't envisage us requiring Friday to be honest, if that assists.

PN788

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Yes. That's fine. Some of us may need to make travel arrangements. That's all I'm suggesting.

PN789

MR SCAIFE: I appreciate the consideration, Deputy President.

PN790

DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: We'll adjourn until 9 am tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 11 APRIL 2018 [3.30 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

MAKERE BROWN, AFFIRMED........................................................................ PN63

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE................................................... PN63

EXHIBIT #1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MAKERE BROWN DATED 21/01/2018 PN72

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO............................................................. PN73

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN107

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE.............................................................. PN139

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN146

MARITES GILTRAP, AFFIRMED................................................................... PN240

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE................................................. PN240

EXHIBIT #2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MARITES GILTRAP DATED 04/04/2018 PN251

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO........................................................... PN253

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN299

DAVID JOHN CARTER, AFFIRMED............................................................. PN303

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE................................................. PN303

EXHIBIT #3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DAVID CARTER COMPRISING FOUR PAGES AND 43 PARAGRAPHS...................................................................................... PN316

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN316

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO........................................................... PN344

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TINDLEY.................................................. PN361

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE.............................................................. PN398

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN410

GILLIAN NOLAN, AFFIRMED........................................................................ PN450

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCAIFE................................................. PN450

EXHIBIT #4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GILLIAN NOLAN DATED 13/02/2018 PN461

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN462

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO........................................................... PN510

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TINDLEY.................................................. PN533

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE.............................................................. PN550

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN559

EXHIBIT #5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SHANIA SIMONS DATED 03/04/2018 PN566

MARK RAYMOND LENTON, AFFIRMED................................................... PN573

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS KNIGHT................................................ PN573

EXHIBIT #6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MARK RAYMOND LENTON DATED 23/02/2018................................................................................................................................. PN582

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO........................................................... PN583

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS KNIGHT............................................................. PN626

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN633

FOON MENG CHENG, AFFIRMED................................................................ PN638

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SCAIFE.................................................. PN638

EXHIBIT #7 WITNESS STATEMENT OF FOON MENG CHENG DATED 06/04/2018 PN647

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN651

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR IZZO........................................................... PN696

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCAIFE.............................................................. PN744

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN762